heel and toe - is OEM pedal setup any good.

[ballsoutracecar]

g'day fellow ITR owners,

i have 01 DC2 ITR.

while i love rev matching theres one problem, on the braking down shift i cant seem to get the heel and toe technique down.

I have a size 13 shoe, so small feet isnt a problem. Ive noticed that the gas pedal isnt exactly at the same height as the brake in nuetral mode.

So my problem is that when Im braking and looking to rev match on the down shift, i really have to brake harder than i'd like to inorder to get a good clean rev match with the gas pedal. But even then this is difficuilt.

So am i doing anything wrong, do you guys have some tips or are the pedal set ups not very good for rev matching and would an aftermarket pedal set do a better job.

Heel and toeing is rather new to me, so any tips perfecting this in an ITR with OEM pedal setup, i would appreciate it.

PS, and im not talking about rev matching at 3-40000 rpm, i do mean HIGH rev matching. just incase you thought i was a freak rev matching and hill and toeing every chance i get.

[Dave-ROR]

g'day fellow ITR owners,

i have 01 DC2 ITR.

while i love rev matching theres one problem, on the braking down shift i cant seem to get the heel and toe technique down.

I have a size 13 shoe, so small feet isnt a problem. Ive noticed that the gas pedal isnt exactly at the same height as the brake in nuetral mode.

So my problem is that when Im braking and looking to rev match on the down shift, i really have to brake harder than i'd like to inorder to get a good clean rev match with the gas pedal. But even then this is difficuilt.

So am i doing anything wrong, do you guys have some tips or are the pedal set ups not very good for rev matching and would an aftermarket pedal set do a better job.

Heel and toeing is rather new to me, so any tips perfecting this in an ITR with OEM pedal setup, i would appreciate it.

PS, and im not talking about rev matching at 3-40000 rpm, i do mean HIGH rev matching. just incase you thought i was a freak rev matching and hill and toeing every chance i get.

Mugen pedals are better for heal/toe compared to stock pedals. Personally I stopped trying, it wasn't worth the effort imo. Now I just brake at my braking point, clutch in, shift to the gear I need, trail brake, off brake, off clutch/on gas and accelerate.

but that's just me.

[ballsoutracecar]

cheers mate,

i also think to agree thats its not becoming worth it.

too much hastle.

[Type R 98]

i also just brake a bit, put the car in gear and break whats needed left, then press on the gas once i need to speed back up... works just fine...

[snookerblack7]

I find the Type R fairly easy to heel toe.. although I practiced a lot in my civic first.. I have no idea if I'm doing it right but it feels good!

[ballsoutracecar]

do you have to brake hard to beable to get enough flex on the throttle to make an effective H&T??

Just curious, what size shoes do you have.....perhaps if their smaller than mine, maybe you have more room for movement which makes it easier..i dunno!

[George Knighton]

Now I just brake at my braking point, clutch in, shift to the gear I need, trail brake, off brake, off clutch/on gas and accelerate.

You'll find that it's what a lot of people are doing, even Honda Challenge people.

[sscguy]

George, just curious, at FATT the guy giving the instructional sessions in the classroom said for fwd cars, don't bother heel-toeing, that it doesn't help anything. Bryan also told me that he doesn't do that, and for the most part at Summit, I didn't. Why is this the case? When I heel-toe, the downshift is much smoother, but does it make it any easier on the transmission? Or is this something I should ask Bryan....heh heh heh, j/k.

[George Knighton]

It does help the clutch and gearbox longevity to rev match when downshifting.

However, having said that, I can't think of an H2 driver who does it in a race. I don't do it, and Bryan doesn't do it.

I can put on a grand show doing the cloverleafs like Unkefer and Spencer will tell you, but then it all disappears when I go out on track.

Hey, I never claimed to be good.

[snookerblack7]

Yeah.. if you're good at it, it can help gearbox and clutch longevity.. but for the street, it's not gonna make much difference.. especially in a Honda. My shoe size is 14, but it doesn't make that much difference because it's more of a rolling motion to the side.

[sscguy]

The H2 drivers, are they not concerned with gearbox longevity? Didn't Corey just blow up his transmission at a recent race? If it's better for the tranny to do that, I'll make every effort to, mainly because I just spent some part of $2200 on a rebuild for it, and would prefer to not pay for one again.

[George Knighton]

The H2 drivers, are they not concerned with gearbox longevity? Didn't Corey just blow up his transmission at a recent race?

LOL...

Not exactly "blow up."

He lost gears, in succession. He looked like he'd still be able to do well because his teammate (Warren) was bump drafting him down the straights to get his top speed back.

He lost one more gear, though, making it impossible for the other car to keep pushing him.

On my ITR, 72000 miles so far and no gearbox trouble. Clutch was replaced at 60,000 because Corey was afraid for it to go longer. When it was removed, however, it was clear that it could have gone on another season.

:shrug:

[Type R 98]

dawhiteboy wrote:
Now I just brake at my braking point, clutch in, shift to the gear I need, trail brake, off brake, off clutch/on gas and accelerate.

thats what i do too... forgot to mention i held the clutch while braking the second time i did...

btw george thats alot of millage, did you go accross the whole country a couple of times to get to races or something else thats outrageously mile makin;)

[George Knighton]

btw george thats alot of millage, did you go accross the whole country a couple of times to get to races or something else thats outrageously mile makin;)

I enjoy driving the ITR.

For the longest time, the ITR was the "beater" for other vehicles.

Now I have an EP3 that's a beater for the ITR, but I still ike driving the ITR a lot. Even now, someone has borrowed the EP3 and I'm driving the ITR.

[type_r_556]

i like the stock pedals better, i too have a 01 itr py, i know one main purpose of heal and toe is to slow your car down while at the same time downshifting but not letting the car jerk around to keep balance before going into a corner, i practiced like crazy and i like where i'm at now, i push on the brake to initiate the car to slow down, push the clutch while taking the righter part of my heel and reving the motor, and downshifting then releasing the clutch, all in a quick azz manner, and i notice my mpg drops increasingly, as i do not feel a yank from downshifting, but you feel the car slowing down, i also no since our cars tend to understeer if cornering extremely hard, while your right foot is on the gas, gentely tap the brakes a couple of times with your left foot and it'll straighten you out, you can take your foot off the gas, or leave it on, depending on the turn. that's my input

[bbqman]

I'm sorry guys but H&T is a fundamental operation in competitive driving/racing situations. To say that it is unimportant is wrong. To say that it is not needed in spirited driving, well I'll give you that.

When properly executed, H&T allows you to threshold brake while selecting the proper gear for the next accelaration zone all while maintaining the cars balance and attitude within the corner.
If you don't master heel & toe on the track, you are leaving 10ths for the opposition.
Personally, I practice on track days so that I am in top form come race day. in roadracing applications you will be outbraked by your competitor if you don't maximize the braking zone, and to do this....well.....h&t.....don't be fooled!

[Dave-ROR]

I'm sorry guys but H&T is a fundamental operation in competitive driving/racing situations. To say that it is unimportant is wrong. To say that it is not needed in spirited driving, well I'll give you that.

When properly executed, H&T allows you to threshold brake while selecting the proper gear for the next accelaration zone all while maintaining the cars balance and attitude within the corner.
If you don't master heel & toe on the track, you are leaving 10ths for the opposition.
Personally, I practice on track days so that I am in top form come race day. in roadracing applications you will be outbraked by your competitor if you don't maximize the braking zone, and to do this....well.....h&t.....don't be fooled!

For me I have to disagree, especially with a RWD car. Is that few hundreths (I wouldn't even say tenths) you save worth it when that one time something unexpected happens and you release the clutch when the RPMS are too far down and the rear wheels lock and spin the car? or transfers weight forward and you spin? to me, it's not. For some people, I'm sure it is.

So, as I said, for some drivers, H&T works out well for them I'm sure, but I personally know of ZERO w2w race car drivers that H&T (to my knowledge)

[Wai]

However, having said that, I can't think of an H2 driver who does it in a race.

So, as I said, for some drivers, H&T works out well for them I'm sure, but I personally know of ZERO w2w race car drivers that H&T (to my knowledge)

Now that interests me.... AFAIK many of the SCCA and Skip Barbara race schools cover the heel/toe technique.

I'm not saying it's a "must-do" for a race, but I've ridden with instructors and racers who don't H/T and it's rough. The car jerked pretty badly and the drive wheel even got "locked" due to the sudden drop of RPM.

[Dave-ROR]

H/T is covered I'm sure. But in practice, I'm not so sure too many actually do it. Either way can be rough and can lock the drive wheels at the limit so smoothness is the key. For me, It's just easier to not bother shifting until I actually need to (and less chance of being rough, once vs twice, three times, etc however many gears you are going through)

[bbqman]

You must be kidding.......nobody you know in w2w racing applies h&t techniques......very, very scary.............and like you mentioned, rough is no good....and this technique allows for proper and smooth weight transfer and transitions...
Speak with experienced racers and they will tell you, at speed it is a must, for leisurely driving....anything goes.

I didn't think this point was debatable, except outside of performance driving!

[Dave-ROR]

You must be kidding.......nobody you know in w2w racing applies h&t techniques......very, very scary.............and like you mentioned, rough is no good....and this technique allows for proper and smooth weight transfer and transitions...
Speak with experienced racers and they will tell you, at speed it is a must, for leisurely driving....anything goes.

I didn't think this point was debatable, except outside of performance driving!

I'll see if Ed does.. he's only been a pro driver for 35 or 40 years or so. I'll see if he does anymore or not. I know he used to roll his foot to the gas in the old jags, spitfires, etc but that was awhile ago. You can easily shift smoothly without heal toe. Yeah, it wastes a few hundreths of a second but I'm fine with that. It's debatable because it is only worth doing for those that want to do it and even then it's only "worth" doing in a race.

[bbqman]

I'm sorry, but I think we have gone astray. This isn't only about time savings. It is about transitions, weight transfer and threshold braking.
The time saved is counted exponentially in a timed lap. This fast lap has to do with maximized braking, minimum turning and maximized acceleration. Wouldn't you be able to put the power down sooner if your car's attitude through a corner was stable? This stability is impossible to achieve at speed without proper heel and toe technique.
I guess where we have the misunderstanding is between street driving and track driving. I do agree with you that it is not neccessary for rides.

BTW, proper heel and toe is not about 'matching engine speeds' its about doing 3 foot operations at the same time with only 2 feet. It is the only way to transition between full brakes to full accel. seemlessly, alwhile selecting different gears.
I hope this helps you out in your track endeavors.

[Dave-ROR]

My car never gets upset on track becuase of "harsh" jerking or anything else. I don't think we are confusing street driving and track driving at all.

It's the *FASTEST* way to transition from full brakes to full accel, but I can do full brake, clutch in, shift the the gear I'll need, off brakes, bring up rpms and release clutch just fine (and smoothly). Yeah sure, it's "slower" but who gives a rat's ass? (exception: road races with money involved where you need to be that much faster)

Oh, and the goal of HT is do do those 3 foot actions, while matching rpm, otherwise you wont be smooth at all. So how exactly does "proper heel and toe" not involve "matching engine speeds"? I can properly heel/toe (this is not a hard process) and keep the peddle floored bouncing off the limiter.. will that be smooth? hell no.

This topic is pointless because there's two opinions: 1. H/T is worth the effort and 2. H/T is not worth the effort. Neither will change the other's mind so what's the poiint?