I once instructed a guy with a turbo Accord. He had the factory seatbelt removed and put in some mickey mouse 4-pt harness that is no wider than 1.5". He even had a palm size fire extinguisher mounted on the a-pillar, and flyers of his shop clamped under the wiper blades y0! Somehow the organizer let him pass tech, but I really wasn't feeling comfortable getting in the passenger seat.... But I still did, thinking that he's a total novice and the speed was low. Well I came back alive, but really don't want to do it twice.
At Expo, we are the ones who tech the cars. If we found that a student's car is unsafe for the track (or for the passenger), and is not easily fixable at the track, should we just send him/her home??
Tech Inspection
Tech Inspection
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My thought is we note the issues and its gets passed to a "Chief Safety Stewart" to make the final call.
If a car is just not safe for passengers or other drivers, then there is no way it should be out on the track.
PCA requires driver and passenger have identical saftey equipment (IE can't run a harness on the driver and stock belt for passenger)
Mattj
If a car is just not safe for passengers or other drivers, then there is no way it should be out on the track.
PCA requires driver and passenger have identical saftey equipment (IE can't run a harness on the driver and stock belt for passenger)
Mattj
00 ITR #1382 SOLD 
Owned 2000 -2005
Owned 2000 -2005
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Batoutahell
- New ITRCA Member
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- Location: Kansas City
Let Lance make the final call about DQ'ing a car for failing tech. But by all means the instructor has the final say on whether he personally will ride in a vehicle that he feels is unsafe. If that situation occurs, Lance might be able to assign another instructor to that car who doesn't mind the safety issues.
Driving FLAT OUT in an actual supercar - like I do - is an art form. I can’t expect you to understand.
IMO
we need to release the safety rules before the event so people will not be stuck high and dry with something that is deemed unacceptable (and no way to fix their car to make it passable)....
unless there is already a plan for this... somehow reading all the organizer emails, i dont see anything that explicitly says this.
thoughts? lance, any way/plan to do something like this?
[i know the discussions on the itrca/h-t can be overwhelming, but I'd rather see happy grumpy faces now and happy faces at the track, as opposed to oblivious people (its amazing what some people feel is 'ok') now and grumpy people then.]
we need to release the safety rules before the event so people will not be stuck high and dry with something that is deemed unacceptable (and no way to fix their car to make it passable)....
unless there is already a plan for this... somehow reading all the organizer emails, i dont see anything that explicitly says this.
thoughts? lance, any way/plan to do something like this?
[i know the discussions on the itrca/h-t can be overwhelming, but I'd rather see happy grumpy faces now and happy faces at the track, as opposed to oblivious people (its amazing what some people feel is 'ok') now and grumpy people then.]
This is actually what I was going to suggest. Send out an email to the participants and emphasize that they WILL get sent home if the car is deemed unsafe and not easily fixable at the track (ie. non-racing harness, cracked windhshield, broken studs, mysterious oil leaks, etc etc).Chris N wrote:we need to release the safety rules before the event so people will not be stuck high and dry with something that is deemed unacceptable (and no way to fix their car to make it passable)....
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the plan is for instructors to tech their students. that way they can deem what they feel comfortable with and what they do not feel comfortable with. basically i'm not going to overrule any instructor. we'll be as accomodating as possible by attempting to swap instructors and such, as jim mentioned. but in the end if we can't find an instructor that is comfortable with a student's car there's a reason for that and the student is shit out of luck.
i'll put together an email and send to all students/instructors in a week or so.
i'll put together an email and send to all students/instructors in a week or so.
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Jan in Omaha
- New ITRCA Member
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Whaaa?lanceh wrote:the plan is for instructors to tech their students. that way they can deem what they feel comfortable with and what they do not feel comfortable with. basically i'm not going to overrule any instructor. we'll be as accomodating as possible by attempting to swap instructors and such, as jim mentioned. but in the end if we can't find an instructor that is comfortable with a student's car there's a reason for that and the student is shit out of luck.
i'll put together an email and send to all students/instructors in a week or so.
NOT.
I am NOT going to be responsible for tech'ing a car. Sheesh, talk about a liability issue!! Do it like EVERY OTHER CLUB and have the drivers be responsible for having the car teched by a MECHANIC BEFORE THE EVENT! Your grid person does a "clean tech" before the car is allowed out on the course.
Here is an example. Pages 8 & 9 of the pdf file:
http://www.bmwia.org/pdffiles/LDDS05%20 ... Packet.pdf
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BudMan
- Senior ITRCA Member
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Well, fwiw -
I've never been asked to complete a form like the bmw club asks for in the 10 years I've been doing these events. Granted, the bmw club is the only one I haven't run
'cause they make you join their club 
Anyway, the KC Porsche Club, KC Audi Porsche Club, KCRSCCA, and the Heartland Corvette club allow you to come to the track with the assumption, and recommendation that your car should be in tact BEFORE you get to the event. There is a 'light' tech that goes on before anyone gets on the track to check things like battery cables, loose items, safety equipment, helmet status, etc...
I'm curious what clubs (beyond bmw) have other requirements. I've run with the president of the KC bmw club at the porsche events & he didn't seem to have any issues.
No one is expecting you to do a "full" tech for each student at the track. Lance can make any final decisions.
I've never been asked to complete a form like the bmw club asks for in the 10 years I've been doing these events. Granted, the bmw club is the only one I haven't run
'cause they make you join their club Anyway, the KC Porsche Club, KC Audi Porsche Club, KCRSCCA, and the Heartland Corvette club allow you to come to the track with the assumption, and recommendation that your car should be in tact BEFORE you get to the event. There is a 'light' tech that goes on before anyone gets on the track to check things like battery cables, loose items, safety equipment, helmet status, etc...
I'm curious what clubs (beyond bmw) have other requirements. I've run with the president of the KC bmw club at the porsche events & he didn't seem to have any issues.
No one is expecting you to do a "full" tech for each student at the track. Lance can make any final decisions.
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Batoutahell
- New ITRCA Member
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Just to clarify. I'm pretty sure Lance wants the students to "officially" tech their own cars (or have a mechanic do it) and fill out the tech sheet before the event like most DE schools require. The instructor's tech duties should be limited to 1) making sure loose stuff is out of the car, and 2) for the instructor's own peace of mind. I'm not going out with a student before looking at the tires, brakes, lug nuts, you know basic stuff. This is stuff we all do anyway.
Driving FLAT OUT in an actual supercar - like I do - is an art form. I can’t expect you to understand.
Interesting topic,
First, Budman - You've never had to have your car tech inspected? You have to be kidding. I run with all of the KC Clubs as well as Rocky Mountain and St Louis. I've even traveled to Grand Rapids, Black Hawk Farms and Rd Atlanta. Everyone has a tech form that needs to be filled out by a certified shop (recommended). Although most of us instructors do our own since we do most of our own work anyway.
Is there a participant packet going out to everyone setting expectations of the weekend (ie, a safe car, outlining the rules of the track etc)?
How can one argue with a student who has an "unsafe" car when they weren't told to show up with a safe one? There is a lot of junk being sold out there and with all the import rags showing "mods" how is a rather uninformed individual supposed to make the correct choice in safety items if WE don't educate them. I'm sure you have all seen the exhaust tubing bent up to resemble a roll bar. It sure looks cool but I wouldn't want to rely on it. No different than improperly mounted harnesses. Who here knows the correct way to install them on every car? I would think that the minimum standard should be the factory safety devices. Let us instructors decide if I want to rely on the aftermarket items or something the manufacture spent millions on to develop. A person’s life can be greatly altered because of an afternoon of "modding".
Our brief tech inspection can not cover suspension pieces, check for rusted out suspension mounting points, easily see leaking brake lines or calipers. We won’t have the tools to verify the rotors are better than minimum thickness or that the motor mounts are secure. Yeah, we can see that the battery is secure, the windshield isn’t cracked, the seat belts aren’t frayed and that the tires don’t have cords showing. If Lance or anyone of us is willing to sign that piece of paper that the car is safe and sound are you willing to put your but and finances on the line if the student has an accident and blames you that YOU didn’t tell him/her that the car was unsafe. The reasoning behind the student paying for the tech inspection is to remove that liability from us. In our sue happy society they will try everything to put the blame on you. It would be great to think that no one in your ITRC family would do such a thing but last I knew, the event was open to anyone. Some bumk’n might show up in his Maserati, drive over his head and blame you for his mistakes. Or worse yet, his modded Pinto, it bursts into flames and sues everyone of us (as event organizers, administrators, tech inspectors and instructors)
Jan races with the SCCA and I’ve spent many a weekends with the BMW CCA risk management team trying to reduce the likelihood of an incident and to protect our club. With a club who is 75,000 members large and who holds hundreds of schools a year we need to make sure we are well protected. I think the least the ITRC needs to have is a minimum standards document and inform the students what is to be expected of them before they spend their money and travel to your event.
I don’t mean to put the fear of God into you but it’s really your but on the line when you put one of these types of events on. As an officer in the BMW CCA I even carry D and O insurance (directors and officers) to protect me if someone else in the club does something wrong and the “offended one†comes after me because I’m in charge.
Sorry for the soapbox but some of these topics are very important and need to be discussed before the event.
Sheridan
“it’s my butt and I plan on keeping itâ€
First, Budman - You've never had to have your car tech inspected? You have to be kidding. I run with all of the KC Clubs as well as Rocky Mountain and St Louis. I've even traveled to Grand Rapids, Black Hawk Farms and Rd Atlanta. Everyone has a tech form that needs to be filled out by a certified shop (recommended). Although most of us instructors do our own since we do most of our own work anyway.
Is there a participant packet going out to everyone setting expectations of the weekend (ie, a safe car, outlining the rules of the track etc)?
How can one argue with a student who has an "unsafe" car when they weren't told to show up with a safe one? There is a lot of junk being sold out there and with all the import rags showing "mods" how is a rather uninformed individual supposed to make the correct choice in safety items if WE don't educate them. I'm sure you have all seen the exhaust tubing bent up to resemble a roll bar. It sure looks cool but I wouldn't want to rely on it. No different than improperly mounted harnesses. Who here knows the correct way to install them on every car? I would think that the minimum standard should be the factory safety devices. Let us instructors decide if I want to rely on the aftermarket items or something the manufacture spent millions on to develop. A person’s life can be greatly altered because of an afternoon of "modding".
Our brief tech inspection can not cover suspension pieces, check for rusted out suspension mounting points, easily see leaking brake lines or calipers. We won’t have the tools to verify the rotors are better than minimum thickness or that the motor mounts are secure. Yeah, we can see that the battery is secure, the windshield isn’t cracked, the seat belts aren’t frayed and that the tires don’t have cords showing. If Lance or anyone of us is willing to sign that piece of paper that the car is safe and sound are you willing to put your but and finances on the line if the student has an accident and blames you that YOU didn’t tell him/her that the car was unsafe. The reasoning behind the student paying for the tech inspection is to remove that liability from us. In our sue happy society they will try everything to put the blame on you. It would be great to think that no one in your ITRC family would do such a thing but last I knew, the event was open to anyone. Some bumk’n might show up in his Maserati, drive over his head and blame you for his mistakes. Or worse yet, his modded Pinto, it bursts into flames and sues everyone of us (as event organizers, administrators, tech inspectors and instructors)
Jan races with the SCCA and I’ve spent many a weekends with the BMW CCA risk management team trying to reduce the likelihood of an incident and to protect our club. With a club who is 75,000 members large and who holds hundreds of schools a year we need to make sure we are well protected. I think the least the ITRC needs to have is a minimum standards document and inform the students what is to be expected of them before they spend their money and travel to your event.
I don’t mean to put the fear of God into you but it’s really your but on the line when you put one of these types of events on. As an officer in the BMW CCA I even carry D and O insurance (directors and officers) to protect me if someone else in the club does something wrong and the “offended one†comes after me because I’m in charge.
Sorry for the soapbox but some of these topics are very important and need to be discussed before the event.
Sheridan
“it’s my butt and I plan on keeping itâ€
"It's better to be blown than stroked"
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BudMan
- Senior ITRCA Member
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Sheridan,
Thanks for your input. All of the events I've ever done were "checklists" that didn't require a 'certified' shop to sign-off. I know you & I have done events together with the Porsche club in Topeka & they didn't require any.
Honestly, I would like to see us require a shop sign-off. It's not completely my decision though. In addition, when you are working with people from across the country, who's to say the info wasn't forged...actually, at least that would put the legal burden on the driver if there were an accident.
Anyway, you don't really have to convince me it's needed. I was merely trying to relay the fact that none of the groups I've run with have required more than a checklist.
Jeff
btw - nice quote in your signature...I think I'll have to agree with that too
Thanks for your input. All of the events I've ever done were "checklists" that didn't require a 'certified' shop to sign-off. I know you & I have done events together with the Porsche club in Topeka & they didn't require any.
Honestly, I would like to see us require a shop sign-off. It's not completely my decision though. In addition, when you are working with people from across the country, who's to say the info wasn't forged...actually, at least that would put the legal burden on the driver if there were an accident.
Anyway, you don't really have to convince me it's needed. I was merely trying to relay the fact that none of the groups I've run with have required more than a checklist.
Jeff
btw - nice quote in your signature...I think I'll have to agree with that too
if you guys want, i'll be happy to bring my SCCA GCR so everyone can see how harnesses should be properly mounted.
is there going to be an official stance on harnesses with no roll bars? i don't know who i have for students, but i'm not getting into a car with this setup.
it's actually pretty easy to check balljoints, brakelines, and wheel bearings in the paddock in the matter of a couple minutes. i think i might do just that.
is there going to be an official stance on harnesses with no roll bars? i don't know who i have for students, but i'm not getting into a car with this setup.
it's actually pretty easy to check balljoints, brakelines, and wheel bearings in the paddock in the matter of a couple minutes. i think i might do just that.
Travis Nordwald
#38 Red Spec Miata
#38 Red Spec Miata
sorry for the late reply. been a busy few weeks with moving back to PA.
jim is exactly right for what i had in mind.
i've never done an event (NASA, PCA, BMWCCA, etc) that absolutely required a shop sign off on the car. it's always been one of the following 2 situations:
- self tech (this is either the student tech's their own car or they have a shop tech it)
- tech by the group holding the event
our plan is for self tech. i can remove the instructor signature part if you like but it's mainly there so that the student knows everything must be ready to go well before the start of their session. if they know they need to get a signature before they got on track they're more likely to make sure everything is done correctly well in advance.
i'm gonna put that email together now for the studenst and get it on it's merry way
jim is exactly right for what i had in mind.
i've never done an event (NASA, PCA, BMWCCA, etc) that absolutely required a shop sign off on the car. it's always been one of the following 2 situations:
- self tech (this is either the student tech's their own car or they have a shop tech it)
- tech by the group holding the event
our plan is for self tech. i can remove the instructor signature part if you like but it's mainly there so that the student knows everything must be ready to go well before the start of their session. if they know they need to get a signature before they got on track they're more likely to make sure everything is done correctly well in advance.
i'm gonna put that email together now for the studenst and get it on it's merry way
- tech by the group holding the event
I don't like this one bit !! Are you willing to take the responsibility of making sure a participant’s car is safe? Doing so you are taking a very dangerous step towards a liability nightmare. In today’s litigious society all it take is one person to have an accident (from minor injuries to death) and it will be all over for the event organizers and the club.
I hate to be all gloom and doom but imagine how devastating it would become if you or someone you know didn't find a defective part, a worn suspension item, a leaky radiator, a weak brake line or rusted out suspension mounting point. Are you willing to risk everything you own because you don't want someone to have his or her car tech inspected by a third party?
Here is a scenario... Billy takes his car to an ITRC club track day. The tech inspector does a quick check and gives the car the A-OK. While out on track the poor installation of a CAI a fuel line ruptures. The car burst into flames and little Billy dies as well as your buddy who was instructing. A sad loss but the horror has just begun...Let's say Billy is married; Billy's parents and wife say he wanted to become a doctor and sue the club (and everyone associated with it) for his death and loss of possible income for an easy $30 million.
The participant NEEDS to have their car tech inspected and sighed off before the come to the event. I think the club should concentrate on putting on a first class driving event and leave the tech inspections to the mechanics that are trained and have the tools (lift) to do the job properly. Let the liability lie on their shoulders. If the participant wants to take responsibility for their own inspection, let it be their butt on the line.
Sheridan
I don't like this one bit !! Are you willing to take the responsibility of making sure a participant’s car is safe? Doing so you are taking a very dangerous step towards a liability nightmare. In today’s litigious society all it take is one person to have an accident (from minor injuries to death) and it will be all over for the event organizers and the club.
I hate to be all gloom and doom but imagine how devastating it would become if you or someone you know didn't find a defective part, a worn suspension item, a leaky radiator, a weak brake line or rusted out suspension mounting point. Are you willing to risk everything you own because you don't want someone to have his or her car tech inspected by a third party?
Here is a scenario... Billy takes his car to an ITRC club track day. The tech inspector does a quick check and gives the car the A-OK. While out on track the poor installation of a CAI a fuel line ruptures. The car burst into flames and little Billy dies as well as your buddy who was instructing. A sad loss but the horror has just begun...Let's say Billy is married; Billy's parents and wife say he wanted to become a doctor and sue the club (and everyone associated with it) for his death and loss of possible income for an easy $30 million.
The participant NEEDS to have their car tech inspected and sighed off before the come to the event. I think the club should concentrate on putting on a first class driving event and leave the tech inspections to the mechanics that are trained and have the tools (lift) to do the job properly. Let the liability lie on their shoulders. If the participant wants to take responsibility for their own inspection, let it be their butt on the line.
Sheridan
"It's better to be blown than stroked"
define "safe"
do you really think that if someone has a problem due to a defective part and are of the mentality to sue they're not gonna sue everyone involved anyway, regardless of who did the "tech" for the car?
we are saying that they are required to have their car teched before the event. we are recommending they have their car teched at a shop but there really is no way to enforce this. we are not having any sort of formal tech in place at the event.
the "instructor tech" is an informal "i want to look over the car to see what i'm getting into" and i would be leary of any instructor not doing this.
if you don't want your name on it that's fine.
do you really think that if someone has a problem due to a defective part and are of the mentality to sue they're not gonna sue everyone involved anyway, regardless of who did the "tech" for the car?
we are saying that they are required to have their car teched before the event. we are recommending they have their car teched at a shop but there really is no way to enforce this. we are not having any sort of formal tech in place at the event.
the "instructor tech" is an informal "i want to look over the car to see what i'm getting into" and i would be leary of any instructor not doing this.
if you don't want your name on it that's fine.
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Jan in Omaha
- New ITRCA Member
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- Joined: January 10th, 2005, 2:41 am
It's less than 100 hours to the event... where's the tech form? The link on the itrac website isn't working. (monday the23rd)lanceh wrote:define "safe"
do you really think that if someone has a problem due to a defective part and are of the mentality to sue they're not gonna sue everyone involved anyway, regardless of who did the "tech" for the car?
we are saying that they are required to have their car teched before the event. we are recommending they have their car teched at a shop but there really is no way to enforce this. we are not having any sort of formal tech in place at the event.
the "instructor tech" is an informal "i want to look over the car to see what i'm getting into" and i would be leary of any instructor not doing this.
if you don't want your name on it that's fine.
I am more concerned about MY safety as a passenger in a car than a lawsuit. Trust me, I will look at every unfamiliar car I am going to get into... but it's not a safety inspection by a long shot. Calipers and rotors fail. Steering components break. Suspensions collapse. All of those situations can be life altering and most can not be seen by doing a "walk around" tech. (and you don't want us driving the car so we can't tell by doing a slow test drive either) We don't have the time or the tools to do an appropriate inspection at the site for 75 cars. It would totally suck for a person to come to the event and not be able to drive because of something that would have been easily caught AND FIXED at a shop. It would suck more if someone gets hurt.
the tech form is in the process of being reposted as a PDF. it's been down for about 3 hrs and i hope BudMan will have it back up shortly.
I don't think anyone ever mentioned that instructors can't drive student cars. our feeling on the subject is very clear in this post http://www.itrca.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5386 and i don't see where any problem lies in this. if you want to that's fine, work out the details with your student. our point is to aviod another frank lin situation where he's making requests to drive cars over the PA system and acting differently towards students who let him drive vs. students who don't.
you mention we don't have the resouces to do an onsite inspection and i completely agree with that, which is why we're not doing it. the only thing we seem to disagree on is a maditory shop inspection and i just don't see the point because you can't in any way police that unless you maditate a specific list of shops where you must be approved from. which is again something we can't do due to the diverse locations the students are coming from. all we can do is suggest recomendations.
I don't think anyone ever mentioned that instructors can't drive student cars. our feeling on the subject is very clear in this post http://www.itrca.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5386 and i don't see where any problem lies in this. if you want to that's fine, work out the details with your student. our point is to aviod another frank lin situation where he's making requests to drive cars over the PA system and acting differently towards students who let him drive vs. students who don't.
you mention we don't have the resouces to do an onsite inspection and i completely agree with that, which is why we're not doing it. the only thing we seem to disagree on is a maditory shop inspection and i just don't see the point because you can't in any way police that unless you maditate a specific list of shops where you must be approved from. which is again something we can't do due to the diverse locations the students are coming from. all we can do is suggest recomendations.
[quote="lanceh"] the only thing we seem to disagree on is a mandatory shop inspection and i just don't see the point because you can't in any way police...quote]
Lance, the idea is to take the liability away from the event organizers. Sure, the participants can fudge/lie about the inspection. At that point it comes down on the participant if something happens, not "well, Lance checked out my car and he said it was OK". Wouldn't it be much better if so-n-so said the car was in good shape than have that burden lie on your shoulders?
On the same note, who's to say a student who signs up doesn't lie about their experience. Is anyone checking to see if they really have done 10 schools? Probably not, no one does. Same goes for the tech inspection. As an instructor, I'll take a quick peak to see if anything is amiss. It's not tough to tell if someone takes care of his or her car.
Sheridan
Lance, the idea is to take the liability away from the event organizers. Sure, the participants can fudge/lie about the inspection. At that point it comes down on the participant if something happens, not "well, Lance checked out my car and he said it was OK". Wouldn't it be much better if so-n-so said the car was in good shape than have that burden lie on your shoulders?
On the same note, who's to say a student who signs up doesn't lie about their experience. Is anyone checking to see if they really have done 10 schools? Probably not, no one does. Same goes for the tech inspection. As an instructor, I'll take a quick peak to see if anything is amiss. It's not tough to tell if someone takes care of his or her car.
Sheridan
"It's better to be blown than stroked"
and this is all i'm asking that you do. it's more for the security and comfort of the instructor not overall health of the car. this responsibility lies on the student.ADRNLN_ti wrote:As an instructor, I'll take a quick peak to see if anything is amiss. It's not tough to tell if someone takes care of his or her car.