expo policy regarding instructors driving student cars

[lanceh]

ok, here's the policy we've come up with:

as a group we are against this policy but we really can't police it. during the drivers and instructors meeting we'll mention that we don't recommend it but many people do find this benificial and if this is something the student and instructor agree on we will offer release of liability forms that each party can fill out.

there will be one that releases the instructor's liability and one that release's the student's liability. so the 2 parties must discuss this and come to an agreement on which form to sign. this will cause a discussion of liability between the two parties which is really what we as the organizers want.

if the 2 parties choose to not sign either then that's up to them but everyone will be offered this opprotunity and told about it in the drivers meeting.

as for the subject of instructors asking to drive a student car: this will be strictly prohibited and we will ask any instructor doing this to leave the event.

questions? comments?

lance

[Jan in Omaha]

As a group you I feel you should recommend it for the first 2 laps on the 1st day. (and possibly be MANDATORY for the Novice group) These laps would be driven at no more than 5/10ths or 55 mph. After that it's up to the student to ask the instructor if he wants to drive it in anyother session and they should not be under any pressure from the instructor to let him drive it.

I did the SCCA PDC (PCD?) at Heartland Park last weekend and suggested (but did not insist) to my 1st time ever at the track Novice that I drive his car the 1st 2 laps to show him where the track went and where all the apexes were and such. I could tell he wasn't jumping up and down about handing his car to someone he just met... but after our first session was over he was VERY glad he had a tour of the track BEFORE he drove it. (we slowly cruised the track for 2 laps and then did a quick driver swap in the hot pits just like I suggested in the paragraph above) I proved to him that I valued his time on track and that I was there to make him as comfortable as possible in a completely new situation and that he could trust ME. I also got a feel for his car even at that slow speed so I could instruct him driving his car in a more competent manner.

[lanceh]

we are not going to make this manditory. i don't feel it's right to put a student in this position.

the first session and maybe firt 2 sessions will be just like last year where there will be no passing anywhere and speeds will be greatly reduced. we'll certainly mention everything that's going on and present all options to the students but i don't want to make the decision for them. it's their car and their life so it's their decision.

we are designing the schedule specifically so that the instructor group goes out first on sat morning and the students do not have class during that session. this way the instructors can take students around the track for a few laps before they even come to class. i realize that not all instructors will have a passenger seat in their car but there should be enough instructors that do so that everyone can get a few laps in.

[thrash]

if the student doesn't want to be at the wheel their first time on the track, the instructors should take them out in the instructors' cars.

the argument of "their car will be totally different" doesn't really hold a lot of water since Expo5 is predominantly a 1-type event (i.e. most students are running ITRs). If a student is really concerned about it, find an instructor with a similarly setup ITR to give that student an intro lap or two.

Besides, the people infavor of instructors driving are saying over and over that the laps will be at 5/10ths or whatever. At 5/10ths, you might as well be driving a van around the track because the quirks of a capable car aren't going to come out unless they're so unsafe so as to be caught either in the paddock or easily from the passenger seat.

[Batoutahell]

Jan - I like your comments about building trust - it's an important aspect of our relationship with our students.

Thrash - what can I say, I agree 110% with everything you said.

This issue has been weighed for some time, and the organizers have come up with the rule, which Lance posted above for everyone's reference. Let's move on to other areas of interest.

[quick]

if the student doesn't want to be at the wheel their first time on the track, the instructors should take them out in the instructors' cars.

I agree 100%. This should eliminate most or all concerns.

[ADRNLN_ti]

if the student doesn't want to be at the wheel their first time on the track, the instructors should take them out in the instructors' cars.

the argument of "their car will be totally different" doesn't really hold a lot of water since Expo5 is predominantly a 1-type event (i.e. most students are running ITRs). If a student is really concerned about it, find an instructor with a similarly setup ITR to give that student an intro lap or two.

Besides, the people infavor of instructors driving are saying over and over that the laps will be at 5/10ths or whatever. At 5/10ths, you might as well be driving a van around the track because the quirks of a capable car aren't going to come out unless they're so unsafe so as to be caught either in the paddock or easily from the passenger seat.

The reason "we" (the BMW CCA and as Jan mentioned, the SCCA) is to show the student the track, not to thrash their car. The BAD thing about a newbie going out with an instructor is that the instructor will be going instructor speeds, not novice speeds. Your new friend might be very intimidated or feel they are expected he/she MUST go that fast.

Don't forget, the novice students will be going so slow over the weekend that it might amount to our 3/10ths. A front driver, rear driver or a AWD car will pretty much behave all the same. These are beginners and we are showing them the line, proper braking, turning and throttle techniques, not how to extract the maximum performance out of the car. Even if we were, they need the basics to start with anyway.

Sheridan
p.s Anyone enjoying the rain? I just returned from Gateway Intl with the best weather ever there. Got to drive a 2002 (a 1974 BMW 2002) race car and see a Lotus Elise hit the wall

[Willard]

the instructors should take them out in the instructors' cars.

I am not sure if I am the only one that will attend without a car this weekend.... but I don't have that ability.
Unless you all want to see a old Dodge truck (with camper) out on track.

I have no issues with driving a students car (if they want me to!)... and I have done it in the past.
I hope to bum a few rides on Friday to get myself up to speed and then go from there. If anybody has a open passenger seat... please let me know. :thumbup:

Willard

[lanceh]

j00 is more than welcome to use either seat in mah car