I have a bone stock (and white) Type R that I want to modify for regular use as a track day car. I once had Mike Galati as a driving instructor at Mid-Ohio, and when he was done showing me the line, he offered me a ride in his Realtime Type R race car. All I can say is stupid fast (yes I thought I might not survive), so now I know how fast a modified ITR can go if you really know how to drive. I on the other hand need help with mods for my car. Engine, suspension, wheels and tires, etc. The car needs to be driven to the track, but is not my daily driver, so some compromise in streetability is acceptable.
1. I spoke to Dan Paramore of DPR and for $3600 he suggested one of his Stage VI modified heads with pentroof welded chambers
New camshaft ( polished , and microlon treated ) ,
Cam gears ( quality twice the cost of economy gears )
New RC injectors
RC modified T.B.
Titanium retainers
Performance dual springs
Heat barrier intake gasket
oem seals
head gasket modification
I was wondering if it would be more cost effective to just install a Jackson Racing super-charger, but I have never seen one on an ITR at the track, and only read about broken engines when there was a JRSC installed on a few Civics driven by Paul Tracy in a magazine test. Any opinions?
2. Headers and exhaust. Is it really worth the money for the Hytech systems, or will a JDM 4:1 give almost the same lap times?
3. Intake. I remember that Realtime used to use an NSX intake box on thier Type R's. I don't know what they use now. What is a good choice here.
4. Engine management. I was thinking that Hondata systems look good. Is the AEM system better? Seems like about the same price once you add all the parts up.
5. Which of the above engine mods would be the most bang for your buck at the track, and which ones would one do first?
6. Suspension. A friend of mine who tracks his Type R a lot installed Tein RA suspension and said this gained him over 4.5 seconds per lap, compared with 1.5 seconds for all his engine mods. What are other good choices people have tried at the track?
7. Tires and wheels. I have had good success with Michelin Sport Cup tires in the dry (not good in the wet!). What is a good wheel and tire size for R compound tires on an ITR? I would drive on stock rims and tires to the track and then change. I know the Realtime team uses 17x7.5 SSR competition rims for the mandated Toyo T1S 225/45/17's with a different differential gear to compensate for the larger diameter, but I can use any size. Peter Cunningham referred to the T1S's as poker chips! What is the widest that will fit, and what offset is good on the wheels?
8. Alignment settings. Should I get adjustable camber devices for front and rear. Who makes them? What are some good alignment values to use?
9. Are any other mods to the chassis wothwhile. (I am not planning a roll cage at the moment).
If anyone has modified their ITR for the track, I would appreciate your input. I do not want to build a race car, just a fun and fast track day car, with which I can of course lap faster than the other guys just having fun:-).
descartesfool
ITR mods for a track day car
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descartesfool
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Batoutahell
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I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but the best bang-for buck investment that I'd recommend is seat time. How many track days have you spent driving an ITR? Your wish list of mods is all over the place. Exactly what aspect(s) of the ITR are you trying the change or improve? What is your driving style? When you answer these types of questions, it will be easier for you to decide which direction you want to go with your car.
Driving FLAT OUT in an actual supercar - like I do - is an art form. I can’t expect you to understand.
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ITRacer121
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I second that notion, you really need a lot of seat time, beucase otherwise, your gonna do a list of mods that may not be conducive to either your driving style, or the tracks you drive on.
Once you start running consistant times, I should say decent consitant times, then you should about trying to make the car faster. I guarantee as it is, the car is a good deal faster then you can push it.
On a side note, the RealTime ITR really doesn't have a heck of a lot done to it, in comparison with some of the really heavily moded street cars, and the reason they had to use the NSX airbox, is by regulation, it's not cause it made so much more power, it's the same reason why they have a good deal of led weights where the passenger seat ordinarily is, to meet wieght specs.
As far as tires go, the Michelan pilot sport cup, at like $230 a tire is a real rip-off, especially as there are many other tires for better prices that perform better. As far as a tire that you can drive there on, I would sugest the Kumho V700, the Toyo RA1, or the Yokohama A032R, are all very good track tires, and make good street tires as well. As far as rain tires for the track, and even good tires for the street are the Falken Azenis.
As far as suspension goes, if you wanna spend big dollars, either moton or penske is the way to go, for a less expensive more streetable system, H&R, Tien, and bilstein make a good street suspension.
As far as the list of stuff you had for $3600, you're paying at least a grand over retail, even for some of the most expensive parts on the market, that's still very expensive. for that kind of price, you could have a motor built from top to bottom that would produce a good deal more HP, with a lot more reliability. When you start messing with head gaskets and intake manifold gaskets of different thicknesses, even like the Hondata one, you run into problems, becuase you change the injector angle from the combustion chamber with an intake manifold gasket, and the combustion chamber/valve to piston clearance with a head gasket, so that's something you really want to be careful about.
And, no don't get a jackson for the track, you'll be very sorry you did, especially when it lands you in the class with 911 twin turbos, corvettes, and supras, it's ok for the street, although not what I'd do, but a big no no for the track.
As far as headers go, the Hytech is lighter and produces more power, no brainer, just a matter of whether you have the moolah. As far as standalones go, from my past experience, Hondata is the way to go, especially in road race cars, frankly it's just a more reliable system, it actually uses a modified honda ecu, instead of something made from scratch for general use. If you look at all the really fast drag cars out there, many are using Hondata, for example EricksRacing run by Erick Aguilar who ran a 10.27 at like 128mph all motor, runs a hondata, all the guys at Endyn and their "B22 parts chaser" run hondata, and many other top pro teams out there. Not to mention, it's less than half the price as you really don't need all the frills and chills that are available for hondata, as you said you'll be using it for road racing, not drag racing.
As far as wheels and tires go, I was always under the impression the Kleinubing and Cunnigham were running 16 inch volk TE37, although I could be mistaken. Either way, the tires they mandate for the speed vision world challenge are great street tires, but not what you would ideally like to run on the track if you have the option. what you really need to decide on first before you get wheels and tires is the size brakes you wanna run, most guys out there run either brembo, AP racing, or willwood, the larger rotor and more piston caliper you have, the larger rims you'll need, just keep in mind, you really really really want light rims, it's the most important weight on your car, next to the flywheel of course. Wheels are one of the last things you really need to worry about untill you get really serious, then unsprungs weigh becomes really important for faster lap times.
As far as camber settings and suspension setting go, you really need to get some coilovers, get them corner weighted, and the shop that puts it on the scales will more than likely be able to recomend camber settings for the local tracks, as not all tracks will be the same. In addition, not only suspension setup, but tire pressure, and driving style will be a great influence. By the way, good camber kits, for the front are Skunk2, and for the rear are Engals, everything else is good, but they are the easiest to use, and as long, and as many cars as I've had them on, never had a problem.
As far as other chasis mods, a Mugen rear sway bar, or any custom made larger rear sway bar is a must, it'll really give you a noticable change in handling, it'll allow you to pivot the rear end a lot easier, and give you a hell of a lot less understeer and pushing, definitely worth the investment. First thing I would do if I were you.
If you look at my setup on my car, which is #01-112 on the regisrty, I have a pretty good road race setup, which I'm not sure if I included my recent coilovers I got, but it may give you a few ideas to start with.
Good luck,
Aj
Once you start running consistant times, I should say decent consitant times, then you should about trying to make the car faster. I guarantee as it is, the car is a good deal faster then you can push it.
On a side note, the RealTime ITR really doesn't have a heck of a lot done to it, in comparison with some of the really heavily moded street cars, and the reason they had to use the NSX airbox, is by regulation, it's not cause it made so much more power, it's the same reason why they have a good deal of led weights where the passenger seat ordinarily is, to meet wieght specs.
As far as tires go, the Michelan pilot sport cup, at like $230 a tire is a real rip-off, especially as there are many other tires for better prices that perform better. As far as a tire that you can drive there on, I would sugest the Kumho V700, the Toyo RA1, or the Yokohama A032R, are all very good track tires, and make good street tires as well. As far as rain tires for the track, and even good tires for the street are the Falken Azenis.
As far as suspension goes, if you wanna spend big dollars, either moton or penske is the way to go, for a less expensive more streetable system, H&R, Tien, and bilstein make a good street suspension.
As far as the list of stuff you had for $3600, you're paying at least a grand over retail, even for some of the most expensive parts on the market, that's still very expensive. for that kind of price, you could have a motor built from top to bottom that would produce a good deal more HP, with a lot more reliability. When you start messing with head gaskets and intake manifold gaskets of different thicknesses, even like the Hondata one, you run into problems, becuase you change the injector angle from the combustion chamber with an intake manifold gasket, and the combustion chamber/valve to piston clearance with a head gasket, so that's something you really want to be careful about.
And, no don't get a jackson for the track, you'll be very sorry you did, especially when it lands you in the class with 911 twin turbos, corvettes, and supras, it's ok for the street, although not what I'd do, but a big no no for the track.
As far as headers go, the Hytech is lighter and produces more power, no brainer, just a matter of whether you have the moolah. As far as standalones go, from my past experience, Hondata is the way to go, especially in road race cars, frankly it's just a more reliable system, it actually uses a modified honda ecu, instead of something made from scratch for general use. If you look at all the really fast drag cars out there, many are using Hondata, for example EricksRacing run by Erick Aguilar who ran a 10.27 at like 128mph all motor, runs a hondata, all the guys at Endyn and their "B22 parts chaser" run hondata, and many other top pro teams out there. Not to mention, it's less than half the price as you really don't need all the frills and chills that are available for hondata, as you said you'll be using it for road racing, not drag racing.
As far as wheels and tires go, I was always under the impression the Kleinubing and Cunnigham were running 16 inch volk TE37, although I could be mistaken. Either way, the tires they mandate for the speed vision world challenge are great street tires, but not what you would ideally like to run on the track if you have the option. what you really need to decide on first before you get wheels and tires is the size brakes you wanna run, most guys out there run either brembo, AP racing, or willwood, the larger rotor and more piston caliper you have, the larger rims you'll need, just keep in mind, you really really really want light rims, it's the most important weight on your car, next to the flywheel of course. Wheels are one of the last things you really need to worry about untill you get really serious, then unsprungs weigh becomes really important for faster lap times.
As far as camber settings and suspension setting go, you really need to get some coilovers, get them corner weighted, and the shop that puts it on the scales will more than likely be able to recomend camber settings for the local tracks, as not all tracks will be the same. In addition, not only suspension setup, but tire pressure, and driving style will be a great influence. By the way, good camber kits, for the front are Skunk2, and for the rear are Engals, everything else is good, but they are the easiest to use, and as long, and as many cars as I've had them on, never had a problem.
As far as other chasis mods, a Mugen rear sway bar, or any custom made larger rear sway bar is a must, it'll really give you a noticable change in handling, it'll allow you to pivot the rear end a lot easier, and give you a hell of a lot less understeer and pushing, definitely worth the investment. First thing I would do if I were you.
If you look at my setup on my car, which is #01-112 on the regisrty, I have a pretty good road race setup, which I'm not sure if I included my recent coilovers I got, but it may give you a few ideas to start with.
Good luck,
Aj
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descartesfool
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With regard to seat time, I have a fair amount of seat time at about half a dozen road race tracks here in the East, since 1997. I've taken F1600 and F2000 race driving courses. Mosport will now be my most regular track. I also run consistent lap times in a 15 lap session, usually dropping steadily until I reach a plateau. I have a 6 channel data aquisition system logging posistion via GPS, lateral and longitudinal G's, wheel speed, engine RPM, throttle posisition and about to add steering angle. The system is made by Race Technology in England, and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to improve their lap times. You do need to bring a laptop to the track though. So I know some parts of the track where I can improve. My driving style is smooth and consistent, with the high speed corners being the place where I need more bravery to decrease lap times. What I really want to do is improve my ITR for the track, but still drive it on the street. I have spoken regularly to Mike Galati and to Peter Cunningham and some of his crew at various World Challenge events.
You are right, they do not modify their cars a lot, except strip the interior, install a roll-cage and safety equipment, plus a trick header, Mugen ECU, Mugen shocks and solid bushings all around, with a custom large diameter hollow rear sway bar that goes through holes into the inside of the car. Engines are basically stock as per rules, and they use a Pi data system. With regards wheels, they used to use Volk wheels in the BF Goodrich days, and NSX wheels in the Goodyear days, but now they use SSR 17" wheels. Mike Galati won the World Challenge in his own team with stock ITR brakes and Hawk Blue pads so that he could use the ABS system, good to win races with in the rain, even though the other guys were using Brembos. Now that ABS is banned, Brembos are the norm, but obviously Mike Galati did not need them to win. However these are race cars lightened as much as possible with lead ballast added to make up minimum weight. Mike Galati is a phenomenal driver and I will never be as good as him, nor do I want to be a professional race driver, but he makes for a good benchmark. I still want a somewaht streetable car. I also have a limited budget of about $5000-$6000 total for this first go-around. Class, SCCA or other is not an issue, as I am only doing open lapping at various tracks. I usually run in the more advanced groups, or get bumped up after a few sessions at a new track. I don't know how else to describe my driving style. Marshalls at Mosport awarded me the "best racing line" award (cash value $75.00!!) for a non-professional driver in a group of about 40 experienced drivers in September (plus about 20 pro drivers).
Perhaps we could go through some of the points one at a time. First is wheels and tires. What make and size of wheels do people feel is a good choice, based on weight and cost, and availability of R compound tires. Volk wheels are very pricey, as are some other wheels such as Mugen and SSR. Konig R1's are relatively cheap for lightweight wheels. Peter Cunningham said in an interview that SSR wheels were easy to damage. Assuming my overall budget for everything is 5k to 6k, what should I get? What sizes fit and don't rub when the car is lowered? I must disagree with AJ about the Sport Cup tires, they are fast and easily pull over one G in the corners in a stock NSX, and while they are expensive, I have measured wear at almost nil after a full day in the dry at Mosport, so cost per lap is very competitive with those other brands. The wheel choices I know of are 15x7 and 15x7.5, or 16x7 and 16x7.5 (is there a 16x8 and would it fit?, or 17x7 and 17x7.5. and 17x7, 17x7.5 and 17x8 as per Tirerack. Centerline says their 17x7 RPM wheel only weighs 13.5 lbs. My gut feeling is to go for 225 width tires, such as 225/50 15, but I don't know if this fits and what wheel you would use. As wheel size goes up, the diameter increases too much and so a narrower tire might have to be used such as 205/45 16 or 205/40 17. I think the Realtime size of 225/45 17 has too big a diameter without changing the differential, but I want to know what others think.
You are right, they do not modify their cars a lot, except strip the interior, install a roll-cage and safety equipment, plus a trick header, Mugen ECU, Mugen shocks and solid bushings all around, with a custom large diameter hollow rear sway bar that goes through holes into the inside of the car. Engines are basically stock as per rules, and they use a Pi data system. With regards wheels, they used to use Volk wheels in the BF Goodrich days, and NSX wheels in the Goodyear days, but now they use SSR 17" wheels. Mike Galati won the World Challenge in his own team with stock ITR brakes and Hawk Blue pads so that he could use the ABS system, good to win races with in the rain, even though the other guys were using Brembos. Now that ABS is banned, Brembos are the norm, but obviously Mike Galati did not need them to win. However these are race cars lightened as much as possible with lead ballast added to make up minimum weight. Mike Galati is a phenomenal driver and I will never be as good as him, nor do I want to be a professional race driver, but he makes for a good benchmark. I still want a somewaht streetable car. I also have a limited budget of about $5000-$6000 total for this first go-around. Class, SCCA or other is not an issue, as I am only doing open lapping at various tracks. I usually run in the more advanced groups, or get bumped up after a few sessions at a new track. I don't know how else to describe my driving style. Marshalls at Mosport awarded me the "best racing line" award (cash value $75.00!!) for a non-professional driver in a group of about 40 experienced drivers in September (plus about 20 pro drivers).
Perhaps we could go through some of the points one at a time. First is wheels and tires. What make and size of wheels do people feel is a good choice, based on weight and cost, and availability of R compound tires. Volk wheels are very pricey, as are some other wheels such as Mugen and SSR. Konig R1's are relatively cheap for lightweight wheels. Peter Cunningham said in an interview that SSR wheels were easy to damage. Assuming my overall budget for everything is 5k to 6k, what should I get? What sizes fit and don't rub when the car is lowered? I must disagree with AJ about the Sport Cup tires, they are fast and easily pull over one G in the corners in a stock NSX, and while they are expensive, I have measured wear at almost nil after a full day in the dry at Mosport, so cost per lap is very competitive with those other brands. The wheel choices I know of are 15x7 and 15x7.5, or 16x7 and 16x7.5 (is there a 16x8 and would it fit?, or 17x7 and 17x7.5. and 17x7, 17x7.5 and 17x8 as per Tirerack. Centerline says their 17x7 RPM wheel only weighs 13.5 lbs. My gut feeling is to go for 225 width tires, such as 225/50 15, but I don't know if this fits and what wheel you would use. As wheel size goes up, the diameter increases too much and so a narrower tire might have to be used such as 205/45 16 or 205/40 17. I think the Realtime size of 225/45 17 has too big a diameter without changing the differential, but I want to know what others think.
I run a set of ohlins coilovers, and I run them a bit on the low side, but down here in FLA, the tracks I ussualy make it to are: homestead miami speedway, sebring international raceway, moroso motorsports park, and lastly, roebling road, and road atlanta up in georgia, which at all the tracks I run, I run a 16" by 7" rim, anything any wider, and I start rubbing some part of either the inside of the fender well, or the actual fender it self, when the car is really loaded up to one side, ex. turn 1 and 17 around sebring's long course. As far as tires, though you may disagree with me, I have already purchased a set of heat cycled pilot sport cups that we tried for a lapping session, and honestly, in retrospect to the Kumho V700 we ran previous season, they make have lasted a bit longer, but didn't stick half as well, I found my self running my ussual lines, and ending up in the gravel traps a lot sooner. We tried them as rain tires, and they were just ok, and found that the falken azenis makes a much better wet or intermediate tire. Try the Kumho V700 or the Toyo RA1, I think you might be very surprised with the performance and longevity you get. Although I think the Kumho makes a better wet tire if it rains while your on track, the Toyo's last almost 1.5 times as long. In addition, toyo makes a slick in the RA1, that really won't have a great street life, but makes an excellent track tire. My only other tire advice to pass on is: DON'T BUY HOOSIERS, I really can't stand them, they slip then grip, not to mention taking way too long to heat up on track.
By the way, on a seperate note, we have a PI system for sale out of our Formula Mazda, and although it's not for an ITR, I've been told that it can be switched over relatively easily. We also have an older digital StacK system that I think was for an RX-7, but once again, could be made to work with anything if you know any one else looking for something like that, let me know.
By the way, rather then adding throttle position, you may want to add gear profile, not sure if that's an option for your system, but it really tells you a lot more, then how hard your mashing on the gas, and in addition, since you know your engine RPM any way, you can calculate throttle percentage regardless.
Good luck,
Aj
By the way, on a seperate note, we have a PI system for sale out of our Formula Mazda, and although it's not for an ITR, I've been told that it can be switched over relatively easily. We also have an older digital StacK system that I think was for an RX-7, but once again, could be made to work with anything if you know any one else looking for something like that, let me know.
By the way, rather then adding throttle position, you may want to add gear profile, not sure if that's an option for your system, but it really tells you a lot more, then how hard your mashing on the gas, and in addition, since you know your engine RPM any way, you can calculate throttle percentage regardless.
Good luck,
Aj
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descartesfool
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Interesting to see that the largest wheel you can fit is 16x7 without rubbing. I am certainly willing to try a set of Khumo V700 or Toyo RA-1's, since they all wear out anyways!! What sizes do you run for each of these tires? I know that there are many track tires (Khumo, Michelin, Toyo, Yokahama) available in the size 225/50/16 or even 225/50/15, but would these not be too wide for a 7" rim? Dropping down in width there are many fewer choices in 16" rims. I beleieve RA-1's and Yoko 032R's only come in 205/55/16 and the Khumo V700's only come in 205/45/16.
I like throttle position sensing to see what percentage of the lap I am using full throttle and also where in the corner do I start to apply full throttle. (i.e. how shy am I with the loud pedal). This info you cannot get from the RPM. But I am not familiar with gear profile. What is it? My system has a couple of analog inputs which can be used for almost anything as long as there is a sensor.
I like throttle position sensing to see what percentage of the lap I am using full throttle and also where in the corner do I start to apply full throttle. (i.e. how shy am I with the loud pedal). This info you cannot get from the RPM. But I am not familiar with gear profile. What is it? My system has a couple of analog inputs which can be used for almost anything as long as there is a sensor.
When it feelsa good, throttle!!
I thought we were actually using a 215-40-16 on a set of 16x7 inch OZ supper-leggeras, but they were V-700, so if they don't make that size, then perhaps we were running 205-45-16, lately I've been pretty brain dead do to finals week, which thank god is now over, but every tire fits a little differntly, for example, in the Toyos, I know we had to run a narrower tire then either the Kumho or Hossier, which as I emphasized before, DON'T BUY HOOSIERS!!!!
We had gear profile(think that's what the sensor was called) in the Formula Mazda which we were running a Pi system in, it tells you not only what gear your in, but also your ratio of acceleration to shift percentage. In otherwords it tells you how much your winding out each gear, this will also help you eliminate certain shifts around the track, often people don't realize that they shift into a gear for only like a couple hundred rpms before shifting again, obviously not accompishing a lot, and also shifting into gear a little low, when they could be a gear lower. In the Pi system, I'm not sure exactly what the hell the sensor was called, I though it was gear profile, but it worked in conjunction with the VSS as well as the TPS sensor, so I suppose it could also give you throttle percentage as well any way. Honestly though, other than knowing that you're scared of certain turns, I'm not sure what else the throttle percentage is really going to help you??
Any way, good luck,
Aj
We had gear profile(think that's what the sensor was called) in the Formula Mazda which we were running a Pi system in, it tells you not only what gear your in, but also your ratio of acceleration to shift percentage. In otherwords it tells you how much your winding out each gear, this will also help you eliminate certain shifts around the track, often people don't realize that they shift into a gear for only like a couple hundred rpms before shifting again, obviously not accompishing a lot, and also shifting into gear a little low, when they could be a gear lower. In the Pi system, I'm not sure exactly what the hell the sensor was called, I though it was gear profile, but it worked in conjunction with the VSS as well as the TPS sensor, so I suppose it could also give you throttle percentage as well any way. Honestly though, other than knowing that you're scared of certain turns, I'm not sure what else the throttle percentage is really going to help you??
Any way, good luck,
Aj
Definately. I spent a night racing, and was much better towards the end of the night. However, going back to daily driven for a while, my skill faltered, and it kind of goes back and forward like that. Also, if you run your car hard, for a long time, do you notice that your car starts to sound a bit different, driving slow, driving fast, and even at idle?Batoutahell wrote:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but the best bang-for buck investment that I'd recommend is seat time.
'98 Acura Integra Type-R
'03 Honda CBR600RR
Surgeon General's Warning: It's OK to Smoke V8's
'03 Honda CBR600RR
Surgeon General's Warning: It's OK to Smoke V8's
Realtime has used several wheels on their cars over the years. They started out with late model front NSX wheels all around, switched to something else (which has slipped my mind) and now use 17x7.5 SSR Comps. Tire choice as far as size goes is a 225/45/17. Toyos of course since the series mandates them.
Kyle
Kyle
"Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make you right. It just means there's someone else out there as stupid as you."
-Nathan Reed
-Nathan Reed
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descartesfool
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You are correct about the current Realtime's tire sizing for the type R, at 225/45/17 Toyo T1-S on 17x7.5" SSR Competition wheels. I checked back on info I had about Realtime's previous set-ups and the one listed in the Sport Compact Car article on their ITR gives 225/50/15 BF Goodrich R1 on 15x7" Volk TE-37, and I have print-outs from an old web site, realtime.vtec.net, which showed 225/50/16 Goodyear GS-CS race tires on 16x7" NSX wheels, which have a 55 mm offset. Those were used with a 1/4" (9 mm) spacer for an equivalent offset of 46 mm (I think the stock US ITR wheels have a 45 or 50 mm offset). There was a mention relating to a picture showing slight rubbing on the rear inner trailing arm from the tire. Thus it seems that a 225 mm section width was the size of choice, madated or not. For both weight, cost and track tire availability, I would like to use 225/50/15 Khumo V700 on 15x7" Kosei R1 wheels. (This size happens to have nearly the same diameter as the stock 195/55/15 tire, 23.85" vs. 23.45" for stock.) I phoned Tirerack and they told me that that particular wheel was available in 38 and 45 mm offset, and that as far as rubbing or not, I was on my own ( breaking new ground they said) with a 225 mm section width, and they did not know which offset to choose, only that rubbing was more likely on the inside (near the suspension) and thus it might be better to choose the 38 mm offset. Has anyone ever tried a 225 mm section tire on their ITR and what offset and wheel width was used?
When it feelsa good, throttle!!
I can say one thing with confidence: don't listen to recommendations given out by Tire Rack or Discount Tire Direct. I had ordered a set of wheels and tires for ITR for X-mas last year. They were fine, albeit looking like they stuck out moreso then the stockers, but when I lowered it with springs and shocks, the tires rubbed ever so slightly on the inner fender lip. Wheels sizes were 17x7 with a 40mm offset and 215/40/17 tires. Find someone that has put the sizes on their car that you want and talk to them. Good luck.
Kyle
Kyle
"Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make you right. It just means there's someone else out there as stupid as you."
-Nathan Reed
-Nathan Reed
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Ole Yeller
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- Joined: November 12th, 2002, 1:25 am
- Location: Toronto
Sounds like you are from Ontario---and so here is a typical set up used by peeps in the Toronto area---
15x7 Kosei K1----225-50 or 45-15's with Khumo's or Toyo RA1's--38 offset on the wheels---Tein HA-or RA coilovers---10k front and14k rear
spring rates--Skunk2 camber kits with 2.5-3 degree's neg camber[front]
for the track. Most stick with the stock motor--It's bullet proof---one dude put 250k of hard use before a rebuild. There is a great club in TO for Honda-Acura types interested in competition, check this out:-
<www.hadamotorsport.com> Lots of track rats there with many years of experiance .
P.S. I have yet to go flat out in corner 4 at Mosport--one day.!!
Ole Yeller.
15x7 Kosei K1----225-50 or 45-15's with Khumo's or Toyo RA1's--38 offset on the wheels---Tein HA-or RA coilovers---10k front and14k rear
spring rates--Skunk2 camber kits with 2.5-3 degree's neg camber[front]
for the track. Most stick with the stock motor--It's bullet proof---one dude put 250k of hard use before a rebuild. There is a great club in TO for Honda-Acura types interested in competition, check this out:-
<www.hadamotorsport.com> Lots of track rats there with many years of experiance .
P.S. I have yet to go flat out in corner 4 at Mosport--one day.!!
Ole Yeller.
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descartesfool
- New ITRCA Member
- Posts: 42
- Joined: December 10th, 2002, 10:48 pm
Actually I'm from Quebec, but just across the border. The set-up you describe is just about what I was thinking: (with budget prices, on which I'll try to get the pencil sharpened later)
1. 15x7 Kosei K1 and I'll order them in 38 mm offset $596.00
2. 225/50/15 Khumo's Ecsta or Victoracer (any opinions) $460.00
3. Skunk 2 camber kit for front, 3 deg. neg camber $199.00
4. Ingalls Eng. rear camber kit, camber? $126.00
5. Tein RA, 10K(559 lb) front $1512.00
14K(783lb) rear
Note: these seem the reverse of Tein supplied setup,
is that right? Similar setup to RTR which use higher
rear than front with 800 lb front and 1200 lb rear. Does
reversing the springs not unbalance the shocks as
they would be valved for the supplied set-up of 14K
front and 10K rear?
6. Mugen rear 26 mm sway bar (necessary?) $370.00
Total: $3263.00
What about bushings, are any worth changing? Are there any other handling mods worth a go?
This leaves me with $2-3k to spend based on my budget. I think you may be right about leaving motor stock (well at least initially). However I was quite impressed by Austin's post on this board on best exhaust for an ITR with a dyno chart showing results of a Hytech header + exhaust, with 187 rwhp. From that post, the set-up described is:
Comptech icebox and intake
Mugen headgasket(no correction to cam gears, roughly at -1.5, -1.5)
Hondata intake manifold gasket, street setup.
Plus additional tuning:
tuned Hondata and cam gears, realized that the injectors were at
101%duty cycle after 1 run with the hondata, added an FPR to
increase fuel, currently at ~60psi, hose on under full throttle.
The budget for this would be (minus Mugen headgasket so I don't have to remove the head):
1. Comptech icebox and intake $230
2. Hondata intake gasket $60
3. Cam gears, pair (AEM?) $206
4. Hondata S200 base system $295
5. P28 ECU with OBD2 Connector + core $495
6. Fuel Pressure Regulator $173
Engine total $1771
7. Hytech header $1300
Engine + header $3071
I left out the Hytech cat-back parts as I would be over budget, but I think the above parts would buy me almost the same power. Would anyone spend about the same total dollars differently? i.e. JDM 4:1 header with Toda B cams and valve springs.
1. 15x7 Kosei K1 and I'll order them in 38 mm offset $596.00
2. 225/50/15 Khumo's Ecsta or Victoracer (any opinions) $460.00
3. Skunk 2 camber kit for front, 3 deg. neg camber $199.00
4. Ingalls Eng. rear camber kit, camber? $126.00
5. Tein RA, 10K(559 lb) front $1512.00
14K(783lb) rear
Note: these seem the reverse of Tein supplied setup,
is that right? Similar setup to RTR which use higher
rear than front with 800 lb front and 1200 lb rear. Does
reversing the springs not unbalance the shocks as
they would be valved for the supplied set-up of 14K
front and 10K rear?
6. Mugen rear 26 mm sway bar (necessary?) $370.00
Total: $3263.00
What about bushings, are any worth changing? Are there any other handling mods worth a go?
This leaves me with $2-3k to spend based on my budget. I think you may be right about leaving motor stock (well at least initially). However I was quite impressed by Austin's post on this board on best exhaust for an ITR with a dyno chart showing results of a Hytech header + exhaust, with 187 rwhp. From that post, the set-up described is:
Comptech icebox and intake
Mugen headgasket(no correction to cam gears, roughly at -1.5, -1.5)
Hondata intake manifold gasket, street setup.
Plus additional tuning:
tuned Hondata and cam gears, realized that the injectors were at
101%duty cycle after 1 run with the hondata, added an FPR to
increase fuel, currently at ~60psi, hose on under full throttle.
The budget for this would be (minus Mugen headgasket so I don't have to remove the head):
1. Comptech icebox and intake $230
2. Hondata intake gasket $60
3. Cam gears, pair (AEM?) $206
4. Hondata S200 base system $295
5. P28 ECU with OBD2 Connector + core $495
6. Fuel Pressure Regulator $173
Engine total $1771
7. Hytech header $1300
Engine + header $3071
I left out the Hytech cat-back parts as I would be over budget, but I think the above parts would buy me almost the same power. Would anyone spend about the same total dollars differently? i.e. JDM 4:1 header with Toda B cams and valve springs.
When it feelsa good, throttle!!
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descartesfool
- New ITRCA Member
- Posts: 42
- Joined: December 10th, 2002, 10:48 pm
I meant that the unbalance was shock to spring, not that the car would be unbalanced. Tein supplies shocks matched to the spring rate, and if they supply a front shock valved for a 14 kg spring and then I swap the spring out for a 10 kg spring, then I thought the shock valving had to be adjusted accordingly, as this is a 40% difference up from 10 kg. When I tried to order a set of Tein RA for my NSX to match the spring stiffness of the new NSX Type R, their stock fronts had 12 kg springs and what I wanted was 8 kg springs (a 50% change from 8 kg). The US distributor took the shocks apart as they said they had to be re-valved, and then found out they did not have the required tools and they said shocks had to go back to Japan, and I would have to pay shipping both ways, at which point I cancelled. In any case I just wanted to confirm the Tein setup for the ITR, if indeed people were swapping the front and rear springs to get 10 kg front and 14 kg rear.
When it feelsa good, throttle!!
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Ole Yeller
- New ITRCA Member
- Posts: 14
- Joined: November 12th, 2002, 1:25 am
- Location: Toronto
Tein USA say that the valves on the shocks have a tolerance of + / - 2K.
But many guys run the 10K front--14K rear with no problems.
If you plan on doing a lot of track time you might consider a roll cage--I have seen 2 Type R's totalled at Mosport--one hit the outside wall on the
exit to corner #1 and the other flipped on the Driver Development Track
at Mosport -- Also, at some point you may want to compete on some level; so check out the classification rules in the area's of your interest
--Solo1--Regional etc. It's a bummer being put in a class were you are not competitive because of a mod or two.
And lastly--Apparantly in Japan they favour the standard shock setup
{14K-f--and10K rear} with a BIG rear sway bar. But the success of Realtime has to mean something!
Andy.
But many guys run the 10K front--14K rear with no problems.
If you plan on doing a lot of track time you might consider a roll cage--I have seen 2 Type R's totalled at Mosport--one hit the outside wall on the
exit to corner #1 and the other flipped on the Driver Development Track
at Mosport -- Also, at some point you may want to compete on some level; so check out the classification rules in the area's of your interest
--Solo1--Regional etc. It's a bummer being put in a class were you are not competitive because of a mod or two.
And lastly--Apparantly in Japan they favour the standard shock setup
{14K-f--and10K rear} with a BIG rear sway bar. But the success of Realtime has to mean something!
Andy.
Hmm. I couldn't say for sure on the balance of spring-to-shock situation for sure. When I was looking to get Teins for one of my RX-7's I asked the guy if I could put a bit softer springs on the dampers to make it a bit more streetable. The guy said it wouldn't be any problem and gave me some part numbers for the lbs. springs that I wanted. I guess you might have to be more concerned when you are going with a higher spring rate rather then lower.
Another thing to consider is the fact that people put many different springs on their cars when they might use the same shock. For example, H&R spring rates might differ from Comptech spring rates but they might still be mounted to Koni Sports.
Kyle
Another thing to consider is the fact that people put many different springs on their cars when they might use the same shock. For example, H&R spring rates might differ from Comptech spring rates but they might still be mounted to Koni Sports.
Kyle
"Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make you right. It just means there's someone else out there as stupid as you."
-Nathan Reed
-Nathan Reed
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descartesfool
- New ITRCA Member
- Posts: 42
- Joined: December 10th, 2002, 10:48 pm
My lap time at Mosport (1st time there) was 1:46 and steady. Friend I met there in a modified Type R had a best time of around 1:43. I did not get the times of the other 3 guys there in Type R's, some stock, some modified. With regard to shocks, there is no doubt that Tein considers they should be valved to match shocks, and this is what I believe also. While you can just put any old spring with any old shock and get the car to bounce up and down, this is not called tuning, this is called guessing. However if flipping the Tein RA front and rear springs works well for people, I am certainly willing to try it. I will however try supplied setup first to get a baseline, with a Mugen 26 mm rear bar. I saw some posts on other forums that showed the King Motorsports Grand Am Cup ITR car using Moton external reservoir shocks, which are also used on Realtime's NSX. But these are very expensive, as are the Mugen shocks used by Mike Galati in 1999 and by Realtime's ITR now. I looked at info on Ohlins used by AJ, but these look out of reach also. I found Tein RA's for $1425 and I think this is the best deal overall, quality/price/weight/tunability. The other contender is Zeal B6, but there is much less info than about Tein, and they are more expensive.
I have been conversing via e-mail with John Grudynski of Hytech Exhaust. He says their complete header + catalyst + Pipe + muffler is $2100. Seems quite expensive, but pictures look real good! He figures exhaust is worth about 5-7 hp and header is about 18 hp. Header alone is $1300, but it is a long tri-Y design which does not fit to standard ITR catalyst, and so it might be required to buy complete system. Comptech makes a similar header (copy?) which they call their race header for about $1000. However this system will also not attach to standard ITR exhaust. What do people think of these types of long header systems. Looks like about $2100/25 hp at peak or about $84/hp. Is a JDM 4:1 header + Toda Spec 3 cams and cam gears a better buy?
I have been conversing via e-mail with John Grudynski of Hytech Exhaust. He says their complete header + catalyst + Pipe + muffler is $2100. Seems quite expensive, but pictures look real good! He figures exhaust is worth about 5-7 hp and header is about 18 hp. Header alone is $1300, but it is a long tri-Y design which does not fit to standard ITR catalyst, and so it might be required to buy complete system. Comptech makes a similar header (copy?) which they call their race header for about $1000. However this system will also not attach to standard ITR exhaust. What do people think of these types of long header systems. Looks like about $2100/25 hp at peak or about $84/hp. Is a JDM 4:1 header + Toda Spec 3 cams and cam gears a better buy?
When it feelsa good, throttle!!
1:46 is a good lap time at mosport with a stock itr and with non R-compound tires
I had track my brother's bone stock ITR few times and I found out the stock seat can't hold so well on the track so I would suggest you get some racing buckets
BTW which lapping day did you attend? I was wondering can a street car attend the open test day at mosport
I had track my brother's bone stock ITR few times and I found out the stock seat can't hold so well on the track so I would suggest you get some racing buckets
BTW which lapping day did you attend? I was wondering can a street car attend the open test day at mosport
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descartesfool
- New ITRCA Member
- Posts: 42
- Joined: December 10th, 2002, 10:48 pm
That 1:46 time was not in a bone stock Type R, but rather in a bone stock NSX with Michelin Sport Cup tires. The Realtime Type R's qualify in about 1:35 at Mosport. I had considered modifying the NSX, but decided to modify the Type R instead, since I got passed by a modified Type R and saw every NSX aslo get passed in the advanced group at Lime Rock. By the way I also spoke to Mark Johnson of Daliracing and he brought his souped up Type R to the NSXPO in Texas this year and he says he did a whole lot of NSX passing himself. I however know a modified NSX can be faster than a modified Type R, but it just costs so much more.
On the header topic, I went back and forth with John at Hytech, but he was not able to send me any dyno plots of his new headers/exhaust for which he wants to get a patent. Maybe in January he might have something to show. Since his header+exhaust costs so much at $2100, does anyone feel other engine mods will drop lap times more for equal or less money, assuming a Hondata with cam gears and dyno tuning?
On the header topic, I went back and forth with John at Hytech, but he was not able to send me any dyno plots of his new headers/exhaust for which he wants to get a patent. Maybe in January he might have something to show. Since his header+exhaust costs so much at $2100, does anyone feel other engine mods will drop lap times more for equal or less money, assuming a Hondata with cam gears and dyno tuning?
When it feelsa good, throttle!!
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descartesfool
- New ITRCA Member
- Posts: 42
- Joined: December 10th, 2002, 10:48 pm
I just got a reply from David Stadulis of SMS products about their header & exhaust. Seems the price for the header is $975 and for the cat back is $875 or $1850 for the entire system. It is a little cheaper than the Hitech system ($2100), but not as much as I thought it would be. He also recommended the addition of Toda Spec B cams, a thinner head gasket, a set of CTR pistons and a Hondata system. His opinion is that such a motor would be good for around 210 whp. Has anyone tried a similar set up?
When it feelsa good, throttle!!