question about brake pads...

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » March 6th, 2007, 6:32 pm

Hello all!,
I am getting ready to return to Road Atlanta in a couple of weeks and needed some advice on brake pads. I'm currently running the hawk hp plus, which have been fine. I still run my car on the street from time to time so I did not want to get an overly aggressive brake pad. However, now I'll be running race tires, thereby increasing speed, and, also one of the things i want to focus on is compressing the braking zones.
I'd like to know some opinions on brake pads that you guys are running, and any comments/suggestions.

thanks in advance.

Rob: this is what i wanted to talk to you about

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 6th, 2007, 9:19 pm

Sorry, was busy today.
Don't ever hesitate to call me, just call.

to compress your brake zones, start with brakes not tires. Those pads will hardly show you what the stock system can do. Not to mention that GTSports are fine for DD and anything else you could throw at it.
I haven't been in the car while you have driven but I honestly feel that tires are one of the last things to get upgraded. Knowing how the car works with your DD tires can be a load of fun and providing a safe platform to learn from (not to mention cheaper).

Dave_B · Post by **Dave_B** » March 6th, 2007, 10:00 pm

Personally I like my Cobalt spec VR's but there no longer produced. I'll probably give Cobalt another try with their new materials and see how I like them once these pads are gone.

jetydosa · Post by **jetydosa** » March 7th, 2007, 12:06 am

I have not experienced this myself, but several people whoms input I trust have had temp failure with the HP+ on track, ie the pad overheats and then just doesnt 'brake' anymore, i guess the performance drops off extremely sharply and suddenly. Road Atlanta is not a place where you want to have this happen.

Ive run short 20min sessions at RA on GTSports and street tires and not had any problems.

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » March 7th, 2007, 12:26 am

If you are running R compounds, consider at a minimum GranSports (call Carl @ Tracracing.com), the new Cobalt variation of what used to be specVRs, or Hawk Blues.

**Note: If you use Blues, be prepared to wash off your wheels quickly to avoid permenant brake dust damage on the wheels.

I personally have found the GranSports my favorite, but you'll have to get them from Canada (ala http://www.TracRacing.com).

Enjoy.

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » March 7th, 2007, 1:04 am

let me clear this up, the tires arent for the braking... i've brought up my speed to where i've started to out drive street tires.(not trying to toot my own horn) Rob, you know about my wreck at rockingham, and the main reason for that was the tires losing traction and before that at RR i was all over the place.. i'm switching to r compund for this reason. the braking on the otherhand is just something i need to work on as ive been told by all my instructors.

I"ve also heard several people say that their hp plus's have faded at the track, i havent run into that problem, but then again, i'm "not braking hard enough" Hense the reason that i want to upgrade the brakes if i'm going to start practicing it.

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » March 7th, 2007, 8:38 am

blktyprgrl wrote:let me clear this up, the tires arent for the braking... i've brought up my speed to where i've started to out drive street tires.(not trying to toot my own horn) Rob, you know about my wreck at rockingham, and the main reason for that was the tires losing traction and before that at RR i was all over the place.. i'm switching to r compund for this reason. the braking on the otherhand is just something i need to work on as ive been told by all my instructors.

Tires work in conjunction with the brakes.

Great brakes + street tires = skid or ABS, which typically will force you to brake earlier and easier = not any problem with brakes (tire limited).

Great tires + avg brake pads = better traction, which will keep the car from using abs = you will naturally push harder on the pedal and try to brake more aggressive = quicker wear & MUCH more heat on pads = fade & feeling that you don't have anymore braking power.

Great combo = brake late, brake hard, be quick. Advanced, experienced drivers only - otherwise, it's a recipe for disaster.

BudMan

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 7th, 2007, 10:11 am

What tires are you having lack grip with?

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » March 7th, 2007, 1:15 pm

to save time, i'm not going into a full explaination of why i got the tires, but basically it was either buy new street tires or get these for free, and since i have an extra set of wheels, now i have both street and track tires.

All i really wanted was opinions on brake pads, i dont want to run out of brakes while learning. The closest i've been to the kitty litter is doing snow angels in it at 3 am before petit and i want to keep it that way. Whether or not i run the r compounds depends on how comfortable i feel and conditions, ie rain, cold, etc.

The tires are kuhmo mxs, they're awful compared to the so-3's, imo. At CMP I was able to get a somewhat predictable understeer by lowering the pressures to 28/26psi when cold. Before that I had a wildly unpredictable oversteer once the tires were heated, as illustrated below:

I certainly dont want this to happen again.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 7th, 2007, 3:14 pm

You don't like the MXs ??? I'm very shocked. But you did have the pressure pretty low. I like them at 37f / 39r hot for track and those pressures cold for the street/highway.
One reason why is they have softish sidewalls.

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » March 7th, 2007, 4:25 pm

For the first couple of sessions at cmp, I had the temps higher, but the rear end was still breaking loose. I lowered them to correct this. I agree, it seems pretty low, but it made the car more predictable. I had the same instrutor at rockingham as cmp and he agreed that the car felt better after lowering the temps.
I honestly dont know what the deal is with my car, why it wants to rotate so much???

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 7th, 2007, 4:30 pm

I personally like the car to have easy rotation...
What is your suspension setup? sway bar size, lbs springs, etc?
Remember out little loose of grip at WTDR event??? lol

I also found with MXs if you keep the psi in the rear 3-4psi lower then the front there is less rotation try 38f 35r hot.

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » March 7th, 2007, 6:29 pm

when i checked the tires after coming in, they were around that psi when hot.
suspension: Tein RA 783/559, stock sway bars, front rear mugen upper strut bars, and i'd have to double check the last alignment for camber and toe settings but it was mild.

a little rotation is nice, but not into a sand barrel.

edit: btw i'm not a "new" member....i just noticed that.. hmm, i guess i need to post more.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 7th, 2007, 7:05 pm

The RAs have adjustable dampers?, if so try making them a bit softer instead of the tires, they might be too stiff, keeping the rear like a pogo stick (enuff to rotate).

I would try this first.
37f / 39r hot MXs for track
soften the rear dampers about 20%
And try slowing the car down in a straight line more.
and give the tires one more chance, I haven't been let down by them once.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 7th, 2007, 7:50 pm

Don't forget to give me the wheel alignment settings

Good talking to you today, It's been too long.

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » March 8th, 2007, 9:40 am

Bbasso wrote:The RAs have adjustable dampers?, if so try making them a bit softer instead of the tires, they might be too stiff, keeping the rear like a pogo stick (enuff to rotate).

I would try this first.
37f / 39r hot MXs for track
soften the rear dampers about 20%
And try slowing the car down in a straight line more.
and give the tires one more chance, I haven't been let down by them once.

Rob's on the right track. stiff rear suspension and continuing to brake while starting a turn will definately increase the amount of rotation (ie. trail-braking). It's a beautiful thing when you are used to it, but can be hazardous to your health.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 8th, 2007, 12:29 pm

Jeff, I spoke to her on the phone yesterday and it seems that she has them all turned to soft along with the tire pressure. So I'm thinking it's too soft and as some knows that will increase the chance of rotation too. It's funny how our cars have a happy middle

So my reccommendation was to increase them little by little until the car balances out. But blktyprgrl said that it just kept getting more willing to rotate. The last possible thing that comes to mind is the wheel alignment settings. Rear toe can play havok on rotation, So I asked her to get the specs from the last time.

So Jeff, any ideas?
I think my settings are pretty good, Well they better be... Willard gave them to me. Would you reccommend them to try? link is in my Sig, last page of the cardomain stuff.

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » March 8th, 2007, 12:39 pm

Bbasso wrote:Jeff, I spoke to her on the phone yesterday and it seems that she has them all turned to soft along with the tire pressure.

So Jeff, any ideas?
I think my settings are pretty good, Well they better be... Willard gave them to me. Would you reccommend them to try? link is in my Sig, last page of the cardomain stuff.

I didn't catch that she was at "full soft". Increase the front stiffness. Underpressured tires are a bad thing.

-- Go with Rob's pressure recommendation.
-- Start with front & rear settings near the middle, then move front 1-2 notches stiffer (my shocks have 15 settings - I don't know what hers have).
-- Now there is room to move front stiffer AND rear softer as necessary.

Note: I have 12k front / 14k rear + mugen 26mm rear sway AND run typically 4-6 settings stiffer in the back than the front to increase rotation...what can I say - I like my "ass coming round!"

BudMan

bbqman · Post by **bbqman** » March 9th, 2007, 12:16 am

Hawk HP+ pads are nice DD pads with occasional track outings but any prolonged session on the track will see them fade.

Here in Montreal, most of the lapping happens on short tight tracks that ask a lot of our brakes. Most people need Hawk Blue power but do not want to swap in and out every weekend.

I have been using the Gransport GS3 race pads on My ITR for 2 years and I DD them in the summer as I am at the track every weekend. They provide excellent cold bite and stay quite linear(feel) throughout the whole heat cycle.
On the track, i cant fade them ...even when I abuse them.

I also use these pads on a Ek coupe with ITR power that still has 4 bolt 10'' discs....never an issue.

The GS3s still dust, but CAN be street driven if needed. These pads work very well on the track, that I can guarantee.

emaill me if you need more info,
carl@tracracing.com

BTW, good sticky tires are a must if you want to maximize your braking performance. While noobs benefit in their steep learning curve with street tires, it is easy to overwhelm them after a few DEs.

Good luck @RA

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » March 9th, 2007, 9:16 am

bbqman wrote:Hawk HP+ pads are nice DD pads with occasional track outings but any prolonged session on the track will see them fade.

Here in Montreal, most of the lapping happens on short tight tracks that ask a lot of our brakes. Most people need Hawk Blue power but do not want to swap in and out every weekend.

I have been using the Gransport GS3 race pads on My ITR for 2 years and I DD them in the summer as I am at the track every weekend. They provide excellent cold bite and stay quite linear(feel) throughout the whole heat cycle.
On the track, i cant fade them ...even when I abuse them.

I also use these pads on a Ek coupe with ITR power that still has 4 bolt 10'' discs....never an issue.

The GS3s still dust, but CAN be street driven if needed. These pads work very well on the track, that I can guarantee.

emaill me if you need more info,
carl@tracracing.com

BTW, good sticky tires are a must if you want to maximize your braking performance. While noobs benefit in their steep learning curve with street tires, it is easy to overwhelm them after a few DEs.

Good luck @RA

who else is using GS3s??? I know, I know, I know!!!!

ME

I haven't taken them off the car, even to drive to work and back

Note: I do brake kinda hard & haven't been able to get any fade, even on a 102 degree day when the track surface rated a 150 degree temperature.

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » March 9th, 2007, 5:27 pm

I've played around with the settings on both the dampening and tire pressure. This combo was the most sucessful in making me feel comfortable in the car. I'll try out what you guys have suggested to see what works.
Rob, none of us can remember the exact alignment settings. I am getting an alignment wed and I'll go by your settings, unless anyone has any other suggestions.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » March 9th, 2007, 6:44 pm

Just to show everyone what wheel alignment settings you are going with... http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_im ... 9_full.jpg

Glad to hear that your car is starting to feel better. But the place where you had the wheel alignment did not store the info in the computer?