98 Type R with P28

[dragon161616]

Can I run my 98 Type R with P28 ecu with Mugen Chipped?
Is that gonna be better or ? Or P72 1995 GS-R Ecu is more powerful?
Help~

[Bowdwn]

p28 would be the best chip to go with, thats the ecu ill be using....

[Aj]

Actually the P72 is a better ECU to use, it actually has a knock sensor input, which is a pretty nice thing to keep. Either way, with a P28 or a P72, you're gonna be changing the chip in it, you might as well at least use an ECU that is a little more current, and was at least originally made to run in a DOHC Vtec car, rather than anthing else. Either way, realistically, it's what ever you can get cheaper or faster. Otherwise don't worry. They both take an aftermarket OBD1 chip...

Oh yeah, dont use the Mugen program, especially as it's probably not the real mugen pogram, unless you're spending a grand from King Motorsports. See if you can get a Skunk2 knock off program, you'll be better off.

See http://www.Locashracing.com

Later,
Aj

[dragon161616]

Will it make extra horsepower by just convert the car from OBD2 to OBD1? My car has DC 421 header, Apexi Dunk catback, AEM CAI. Do you think the power will just be the same as now ... or will increase?
Why people go OBD1 instead of 2 ?
Should I unplug any sensor ...like one of the O2 sensor at Cat-converter ,... or anymore ... ? When I convert OBD2 to OBD1? Or the ecu just automatically ignore those sensor?
Thanks~

[Erik B]

I dont know about N/A cars but OBD1 has a less agressive program for boost then the OBD2. Jotech has proven 20whp gains off just a OBD1 ECU in a Turbo TypeR. I have the OBD1 in my car (got it just preping the car for the Turbo) and it by its self didn't feel stronger at all. Matter fact with the TypeR ECU I use to rev to 8777rpm(via VAFC) vs the GSR OBD1 which has never let me touch anything over 8222 rpms. Its been like learning how to drive the car all over again. I hit that dam rev limiter aaaaaaallot since I put the ECU in but I've gotten better....I guess a shift light would come in handy....

[Aj]

I dont know about N/A cars but OBD1 has a less agressive program for boost then the OBD2. Jotech has proven 20whp gains off just a OBD1 ECU in a Turbo TypeR. I have the OBD1 in my car (got it just preping the car for the Turbo) and it by its self didn't feel stronger at all. Matter fact with the TypeR ECU I use to rev to 8777rpm(via VAFC) vs the GSR OBD1 which has never let me touch anything over 8222 rpms. Its been like learning how to drive the car all over again. I hit that dam rev limiter aaaaaaallot since I put the ECU in but I've gotten better....I guess a shift light would come in handy....

Whoa, that's a mixed mess of misinformation and mistake...

First off, OBD1 is not a program, it's a generation of ECU, in fact the most common OBD1 ECU is not at a P72(GSR) ecu either, it's a P28, which was like a single over head cam civic from back in the day. An ECU is only that of which it is programmed. For example, if you have a P28 or P72, the ECU could have a Skunk2 program, a Mugen program, or a custom boost program, all dependent on what you put in it, almost no one uses the ECU with its stock program, as for the most part, it wouldn't run right, expecially in the case of an ITR using a P72, where the P72 was meant for a motor with a dual stage runner manifold. For cars with boost, there is no such thing as a less aggresive profile in an ECU, and actually if anything, there is more fuel. On a side note, you can also reprogram an ODB2 ecu to spec, it'll just cost you an arm and a leg as well as a nice long delay.

If you have an old P72 (GSR) ecu, and it has a 8200rpm rev limit, then you have some serious issues, and may actually be running the stock program, which isn't wise, as it has pretty much no resemblance to what your car comes with. The only purpose of running an OBD1 ECU is tunability, it allows you to change the chip to something that is more fitting of your setup rather than the stock ECU, it also allows you to only run 1 o2 sensor and no cat if you so choose. Your stock ECU will be best for a virtually stock car, until you get into internals, becuase for the most part, it compensates for little changes such as intake, exhaust, headers, and so on.

So, your comment about it not feeling stronger, is more than likely, becuase it's not, or not substancialy, often times people think that just switching to OBD1 itself will give you horse power, when it fact, it's not the case. Frequently the only thing it does is allow for higher rpm and less restriction with respect to sensors and changes, this is why it is so much easier to tune an OBD1 car, especially with boost as a factor.

Later,
Aj

[dragon161616]

Thanks Aj
I just won a pair of Intake and Exhaust Cam shaft from Skunk2 Stage 3. And will put them in once I found a set on adj Cam gears. My buddy has his 98 GS-R ... (Not Type R ) with Almost the same thing like I had. But he got the CTR cam Shafts + Testpipe + 3 custom Pulleys. His dyno test is 163.7 hp with OBD2 ...after his switched to OBD1 (stock 95 P72), he got 174.5hp.
That's why I plan to do the conversion! You think is OK if I install a P28 ecu in my ITR with all the set-up I told you?
What will be your suggestion? And what do you think about my friend's GS-R? He told me the best GS-R is "1995". You think so?

[Aj]

Well, starting, with the cams you "won", which by the way, where did you win them???? Any way, you will need the skunk2 valve springs, retainers, and more than like in addition to cam gears, may also need some injectors. Those cams are very radical, and to work sufficiently wil require substacially higher compression then stock. I'd say something closer to 12:1. They will also require a nice header, test pipe or high flow cat, and free flowing exhaust to breath properly.

As far as switching to OBD1, if he had a 98 GSR, likely to not, he switched to OBD1 and gained 11whp becuase he had the ECU chipped, though he may say it's stock, or even think it, chances are if he got it off line, it was chipped, unless of course he is running a vafc or something like that, and thats where he got the additional hp, is from tunning. Running the the 00-01' ITR cams, or CTR, both the same, requires a little more timing, a little more fuel, and unless he chipped it, the older GSR and the newer all had very similar ECU program wether OBD1 or 2, and not likely to make up an 11whp difference.

Any way, if you want to put a P28 ECU in your car, keep in mind that you need an obd2 -> obd1 jumper harness/conversion, in addition to having it chipped, as it won't work stock. If you decide to do a P72 or P06 or something along those lines you will also need it chipped as it was not meant to run correctly in your car and will have all the wrong fuel and Vtec maps. Also, most places that chip ECUs will allow you to set a custom rev limiter as well as a custom Vtec engaugement point. In the case of rev limiter, I would put in no higher than 9600 for a daily driven car, and as for Vtec, in order not to have a huge dip into vtec, you may want to move it up to about 6300 or so, maybe even a little higher. Realistically, I would invest in a Hondata or something like that as per your budget will allow it, as those cams are a little out of the ordinary, you'll have some issues getting them to run well on a standardized ECU rom program such as the Mugen chip for example.

As far as your friends GSR, I wouldn't waste the money on CTR cams again, I tried them out prior to finding out they were the same as my 01' ITR cams, soon after dynoing the exact same numbers, give or take a couple tenths due to the valve adjustment, I was kinda teed off, but I guess, live and learn. Any way, the 95 was not the best year, in fact from 94-96 they were identical, in 97 they switched it up a little as far as computer goes, but other wise nothing, then in 98 they changed the front and rear facia. Other than that, until 00' everything stayed the same from top to bottom, then until they discontinued it on 01' it was exactly the same. On the whole, 94-97 they made very few changes if any, and then 98-01' they also didn't change a lot. I was more body styling than anything. Any way, good luck with your car, and seriously consider selling those cams for some less aggresive ones, that will require less modification to what sounds like an almost stock R. I'd look into some skunk2 stage 1 or something like that, that wont require a huge investment or a lot of peripheral parts.

Later,
Aj

[dragon161616]

Aj, CTR and ITR cam Shafts are not alike.

[Erik B]

[/quote]If you have an old P72 (GSR) ecu, and it has a 8200rpm rev limit, then you have some serious issues, and may actually be running the stock program, which isn't wise, as it has pretty much no resemblance to what your car comes with.


Later,
Aj[/quote]

I said its not stronger because I know that changing just the ECU doesn't do shit. What's a stock GSR's rev limiter kick in at? I have a bone stock ECU and it doesn't go over 8200rpms. Also I was told by Tony at Jotech it has less agressive fuel curves......is that worng too?

[Aj]

stock rev limiter I think is at about 8200, but your valve train was meant for higher rpms, and in all realistic terms your not using your potential, whether it's with boost or otherwise, the more rpm you have, faster you'll go, and not to mention in your case, your car makes power till the factory red line any way, it's dumb not to use what you have. As far as fuel curves, they're not exaclty less aggresive, but they are leaner, which when it comes to turbo cars is terrible, and further, on our cars it's not good either, as our cars have higher compression and more aggresive cams. Your stock ECU has about the perfect amount of fuel, maybe a tad rich, but running GSR specs isn't the way to get hp. On top of that, if it weren't bad enough that the fuel maps are all wrong, the P72 ECU is meant for a GSR manifold that has dual stage runners or eight runners more simply put, and a two stage vtec. The vtec engauges at some crazy low number like 3800 or something, and then switches runners at like 5600 or maybe it was 5800, either way, that ECU is definitely not the way to go!!

I'm not too familiar with the guys at Jotech, but it sounds like in this case, they gave you some pretty bone headed advice. If I were you, I'd try and get a chip for your ECU, as even a child could chip a P72, best place to get one would be online, and just see what you can find. A skunk2 program would be good, as it runs very well with our setup, even with just a few mods. And if you plan to boost it later, you can always switch chips. By switching the chips to a Skunk2 program for example, it reverts back to an ITR manifold setup with single stage vtec, and our maps but a little richer.

Any way,
Later,
Aj

[Erik B]

I'm going to run GSR cams (which are in already) and the GSR ECU (which is in already) How do you argue with a dyno sheet? Jotech only has the 2nd fastest honda uni-body Honda out there and I know Kenny Tran and Tony know there shit. I saw a dyno where all they did was change the ECU on a Turbo TypeR and gained 20WHP......I'll say it again 20WHP. I really can't belive you don't know a OBD1 ECU helps....Its been covered numerious times.....and proven as well. You seem like you know what your talking about most of the time but your wrong on this one. I'm done.

[Aj]

Well, first off, one thing you should learn about, is that I can make 20whp off a lot of things, in fact, we made over 44whp by installing a Vafc and just changing the Vtec point, but getting a higher max number means nothing, it's gaining it consistantly accrross the curve, which is your average. To further the point, they may have the second fastest unibody honda in the US, but i garauntee it's not running a stock P72 either. Erick Aguilar, who currently has the worlds fastest all motor honda runs a P28 with a Hondata setup. If you so doubt what I tell you, call up Erick, he regularly answers the phones at ericks racing in Cali, or perhaps you can talk to Signal auto, or any of those guys, as I've had this conversation with all of them on more than one occasion when deciding what to do with mine.

Is your car a GSR or and ITR. If it's an ITR, then why in gods name did you switch to GSR cams, and if your answer is becuase they are less radical for turbo, you should know that they also produce less horsepower without any more reliability. Your stock ITR cams are some of the best cams produced for boost, if you look into it, most reputable shops, such as Jun, AKH Trading(Toda), and KingMotorsport(Mugen) will all tell you that your stock cams are best for boost, not GSR, not sure why any one would tell you that. On our 98 Ek hatch we put down 648whp with a set of stock ITR cams and obviously a 63-1 with a T88 back housing. Wouldn't even try to use GSR cams, they just dont have the durration that is conducive of making power in boost or all motor.

Any way, I wasn't arguing about OBD1 helping, not at all, just the contrary, I run a Hondata, which uses OBD1. But only on moded cars. The point I was making was that on an otherwise relatively stock car, the conversion makes little or no power, if you don't loose some. Call your guys back at Jotech, and ask them, if you have a pretty stock ITR, what will make more power, your stock ECU, or an un-chipped, stock P72, and see what they tell you. It's one thing if you chip an ECU, it's a whole nother to run it stock. An OBD1 ecu is only as good as the program you chip it with. And just out of sheer curiousity, that dyno graph where he got 20WHP, did he mention what type of chip he was using, or what else he had done to the car other than that??? Cars especially with boost do very well on going to OBD1, of course, they also get 30 or 40whp form exhaust. So in comparison, an otherwise stock ITR gets about 2whp with exhaust, if that, see my point. Or do you really believe that switching from a P73 to a P72 gave someone 20whp by itself, cause I'd really love to see that!!!!

Listen, this argument is sort of dumb, I've dynoed any number of cars, and seen the gains out of OBD1, and know it's potential, but just tossing something togather, especially not noing what you are doing, is not a slick move. I happen to have a ROM burner, and have burned my own chips before, so I know what kind of gains there are, but don't think that becuase someone else does something successfully that you'll be able to do the same with something completely different, and still get the same gains. In order to see good consistant gains, you really need a rom chip taylored to your application, or atleast to something close.

We dynoed my car with it's stock P73 ECU at 165.6whp, we then dynoed it again utilizing the Skunk2 program from Group A on an OBD1 P28 ECU, now keeping in mind that the only mods my car had were cold air and a header. We gained 4 to the wheels between 5400-6300 bringing it to 169.3whp, I guess because it cleaned up the vtec transition a little. Which was great, except for the fact that we lost 11whp almost every where else in the rpm range becuase it was too rich for stock compression. Moral of the story, yes the max hp on the dyno went up, not by 20whp, but still byu something, but the average went down a lot more than the max went up, in fact the car felt slugish just driving around. Again, when we did pistons, rods, and cams, only a couple weeks later the car dynoed at 172whp, with just the same program in OBD1 we gained 8whp accross the rpm band, and then using the hondata gained another 22whp on top of that.

Either way, what works for some doesn't necesarily work for others. I was basically saying for some people it's not practical to do, at least not yet...weigh your other options, sometimes you may find its not the way to go.

Later,
Aj

[Erik B]

For crying out loud I know a OBD1 ECU won't do shit to a stock car. I said that in my 1st post. All I said was Jotech (and I said they have the 2nd fastest car because that right there tells me they know what the hell they are doing) did a Turbo kit on a ITR and dyno'ed it. They changed the ECU and did a little fuel adjustment and was able to gain 20whp...thats all.

[Aj]

Yeah, I read your first post, but what does Jotech have to do with Dragon1616 who was asking about his car with IHE. I have no idea why you brought it up in the first place, it has nothing to do with the topic. It's great that some tuner hot some horsepower out of an ECU, WHOOPIE. WHO CARES!!!!!

he asked for advice, I gave him mine, why are you so bent on telling that I dont know what I'm talking about. If you want to critisize my advice by all means, but in this case, give up. i was trying to say in his case it won't help much if at all, and you feel the need to argue, even though you just agreed with me.

Dude, get over it...

[Aj]

Aj, CTR and ITR cam Shafts are not alike.

Hey dragon, I hate to break it to you, but the 98+ CTR and the 00' and 01' ITR cams are the same cam. Put a post up if you dont believe me. But, trust me, they're the exact same cam. In 00' Honda started using the CTR cam in order to save on manufacturing costs.

Later,
Aj

[Erik B]

I did the same with my post. I just gave the guy some feed back. Also your wrong again CTR/ITR cams are not the same.......

[Aj]

Really, if you seem to know so much, what is the lift and durration of the CTR cam, and what's the lift and durration of the 01' ITR cam???

If you are really in the mood to prove your self wrong, go post it up on the main discussion board and see what people have to say either here or at honda-tech, or even better yet, call your buddies at Jotech, and ask them if they are the same, and then you can come back and admit you were wrong.

I'm over the ECU thing and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but as far as the cams go, I miced em' out my self, so I know they are the same. But, if you persist to think you know everything, please, by all means, prove me wrong, find out the specs on those cams, and then I'll admit I was wrong, otherwise, you're talking about things you don't know anything about....

Later,
Aj

[Erik B]

This is coming str8 from Tony:

well, 648hp and 250hp are two different stories. Type r cams may make a few more hp up top, but midrange will suffer badly. Trust me bro, we still run stock gsr cams in our civic and we're making over 900hp. I'm just speaking from experience. I've swapped cams many times before and the cars are quicker on the street. It's just not worth it to make 5-10 more hp from 7.5k up and loose 10-25hp from 7k down. The turbo spools slower and you make less midrange power with the itrs.

nuff said about that.

I'll find the specs for the cams I don't know them off the top of my head.

[Aj]

you do that.....lol

You take this shit way to seriously.

Kool your jets......

Any way you look at it, I've tried all the different honda cams in our couple of turbo cars even B16, some with results, some not, the best numbers we came up with were with the ITR cams across the board. maybe he gets better results with his gsr cams, what ever works for you...but if I were you, before you go off half cocked arguing, why don't you do the test your self, dyno your car once it's turboed with the GSR cams then swap for ITR cams, you may get some results that surprise you...and if not, then go with what works, it's as simple as that. Don't just blindly take someone elses advice.

Later,
Aj

[Aj]

Saved you some time...

- STOCK 1997-1999 ITR
INTAKE lift - 11.5 mm, duration 240 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.5mm, duration 235 @1mm

- STOCK CTR and 2000-2001 ITR
INTAKE lift - 11.5 mm, duration 243 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.5mm, duration 235 @1mm

On a side note, they are different cams with different part numbers, they just happen to have the same specs and markings. So you're right, not the same cam...but as far as any normal purposes go, they are the same cam, the only difference is when and where they were produced.

Peace,
Aj