Disappointment

RacerRex · Post by **RacerRex** » June 11th, 2007, 11:29 pm

I have to say, I'm rather disappointed at the skill level of most of the drivers attending this event. And it seems like most of these guys are just here to party. The crowd bears more resemblence to a frat party than an HPDE...

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » June 12th, 2007, 12:34 am

Disappointed at the skill level? How many EXPO's have you been to? Sounds like it may be your first.

Predominantly, ITR owners have been getting younger and younger due to the cost of the car dropping. If you want a crowd to your caliber, maybe you should stick with NASA.

Personally, the ones I have been to, I have avoided all partying but its a gathering of friends whom we have not seen in such a long time. Its more of an experience (to me) rather than a driving school.

Post by **cheezthis** » June 12th, 2007, 1:53 am

Sorry to hear that you're not happy with the event. I am one of the organizers but was unable to make it at the last minute (literally last minute).

It's true though, the average age is dropping fast. However, I encourage you to try to be someone that the younger guys can learn from. Try to remember when you started it out.

I hope you enjoy the last day of the event. You're at one of the best tracks in the country!

itrsteez · Post by **itrsteez** » June 12th, 2007, 4:13 pm

I dunno, maybe I'm full of crazy talk... but it seems to me as if no new comers ever showed up then these expo's would eventually be extinct....

Remember each driver there shelled out the same amount of cash that you did to drive on such an amazing course for two days.

I see nothing wrong with people boozing at night and mingling amongst themselves, at least it helps build a sense of community.

Dave_B · Post by **Dave_B** » June 12th, 2007, 11:43 pm

Disappointed? Why?

What run group were you in? Novice? I presume not, so at least advanced? Those guys, most of them, were moving pretty good from what I could tell. Int. had a few "slower" "newer" drivers but for the most part pointed by and that was that.

Not everyone can/will be fast. A track like VIR (my first time there) is quite an experience. It's a lot different than the other tracks I've personally been to. Looking up at the tree line/sky just before Oak Tree and then again at the end of the back straight are just damn intimidating. Once you get over the "is there going to be track under me" your fine.

Sorry if you were disappointed, but if you were at least you still got to drive VIR.

Dave.

Ahmet · Post by **Ahmet** » June 12th, 2007, 11:48 pm

I know Rex must've been to VIR a million times with a variety of clubs as have I. I will tell you the problems with this particular event from my perspective:

As you're all aware, the schedule was not announced prior to the event, which is OK really, because we didn't quite stick to it anyway...

I had three students, and there was no instructor-student pairing. I was seriously expected to be in a car for 90 minutes at a time. Nobody was checking to see if a student was signed off, no logbooks or other feedback was being kept. Speaking of, I took my novice student out in his run group for 5 laps (in my own car), and was stuck behind one car for 2 laps. He was out by himself. Obviously a novice should not be alone, especially one that doesn't watch his mirrors. Many drivers in advanced (WITH PASS ANYWHERE) did NOT belong there. I hear they suggested some of those drivers consider instructing. Let's hope not...

It didn't help that the VIR lodge literally looked like a frat party. There were people peeling out in the parking lot (with open containers), etc. late into the night.

It wasn't a horrible event all things considered, but there were many areas that could be improved upon. Proper placement of students in Novice/Intermediate/Advanced, with enough instructors +a predetermined schedule would be a good start. Most people attending seemed like great people, when they weren't in a large crowd/drunk. I was quite pleased with my students.
Ahmet

elambz · Post by **elambz** » June 13th, 2007, 12:04 am

I'm disappointed that I didn't have the money to sign up as a driver.

I'm still wondering how that red RSX was in the Novice group. He was lapping everyone each session and was much faster than 90% of the Novice cars.

RacerRex · Post by **RacerRex** » June 13th, 2007, 12:28 am

Yeah, so I was a little frustrated with the drunken crowd when I posted that. I should probably clarify a couple of things.

First of all, I think the event was an overall success and I want to say a heart-felt "thank you" to all of the organizers; I'm sure it's a royal pain to put one of these things together.

Yes, this was my first Expo. Yes, I've done several driving events with other clubs. Yes, I'm a little older than your average ITR owner (I bought mine new in '98.) I know that this is a once-a-year chance for many of you to get together and I agree with itrsteez that there's nothing wrong with people "boozing and mingling at night." The first night of a two day event is really not the best time since you won't be able to drive for shit the next day, but then it was really the only night available for a lot of the participants for that sort of thing. So hey, if that's what your priority is then more power to you. Things did get a little out of hand though. Several people at the "after party" at the lodge, who were drunk enough that they couldn't walk straight, proceeded to get in their cars and drive off. Not cool, guys. I was actually concerned for the safety of the cars in the parking lot. Security was pretty pissed. VIR management can be pretty uptight and I wouldn't be at all surprised if ITRCA were not "invited back," which would be a shame because it's an awesome track! I'm hoping that this is not the image ITRCA is trying to project.

I personally think that there are a few things you guys could have done better. I don't mean that in a negative way, more as constructive criticism. For instance, it would have been nice to send a copy of the schedule via e-mail (or just post it on the website) so we could have had a little advance warning as to what to expect. For some of the lucky members of the crowd VIR is only about an hour away, which is close enough to drive to the track in the morning. If you've never been to VIR, or any other track event, it's a little hard to guess what time you need to be there.

If you are interested in feedback to help improve these Expo's I'd be happy to share my observations. If not, that's fine too. Most clubs include an event evaluation sheet in their packets for this sort of thing.

Second, I realize that the average age of the ITR owner has declined somewhat in recent years. This was the first event for quite a few of the participants. The ITR is a very capable car and I think it's awesome that people want to learn to drive them well, particularly the younger members of the crowd. I made several new friends and will try my best to nuture their budding enthusiam for this sport. Personally, I'd love to see ITRCA do more of these, but have them be a little more driving school and a little less party. The partying is fine, it just doesn't really mix well with learning to drive the climbing esses at 105mph...

blktyprgrl · Post by **blktyprgrl** » June 13th, 2007, 4:09 am

I will have to say, i came to this event knowing that it really is a meeting of a national car club and everyone is going catch up and what not. I knew that people were going to be partying and I was a little concerned about the on track mentalitly of the people there. Overall, i found that it was very mature, beyond my expectations. Even though some of us like to hang out, party and catch up, on track, everyone took it very seriously. I was very impressed.

I agree, i would have liked to have the schedule in advance, but it wasn't a catastrophe that I didnt. Also, the run groups could have been organized better. The majority of the "novice" group was running on at least an intermediate level. However, this is a once a year event and it is hard to know who has what skill level.

overall, i had an excellent time. I learned a lot, both in classroom and on track.

Chris N · Post by **Chris N** » June 13th, 2007, 10:50 am

I thought the on track manners were great. There were many novices - including most of the intermediate group. Many students progressed a long way, from absolute beginner. All things considered, I thought it went very well. Obviously there were things that could be fixed.

i was really impressed with everyone's attitude while in the car and at the track. The concentration level necessary is very high. I saw some students 'sitting out' on tuesday morning. Probably a good thing, and the only loss was their own. But on the track, people were VERY aware of cars behind them and in front of them, and we had very few incidences. This is a difficult and daunting track for a first timer. All things considered I was impressed with the new guys.

We had a severe shortage of instructors. We did our best given this situation. Several people stepped up big time to keep us moving in the instructor department INCLUDING a guest, a driver, and several other instructors who picked up extras.

There is really nothing we could have done about this - we had a lot of signups that ended up not being there. Something that definitely could be improved was our documentation. We were also short a staff member and again, did our best.

I'm sorry to hear some people found this event disappointing. I heard many very good compliments as well. I'm aware there are things we can and will do better in the future.

it is VERY difficult to assign rungroups. We are at the mercy of what the registrant/driver tells us about their track history and experience. We moved some students around, maybe we should have moved more. Most of our registrants this year in novice/intermediate had not been to an expo before, or at most, one expo or other event in the past, and not necessarily the recent past.

as far as the hooligans, this has become a bit of a tradition. although i have to say things are getting calmer each year. when all these people get together who see each other once or twice a year, this is bound to happen. We definitely need to send all the hooligans off to a remote place in the future as to not disturb everyone else.

one final thing - we had serious database issues this year and were completely unable to do any run group assignments until friday before the event. we had done the assignments several times before, but the field changed quite a bit with spots being sold, etc. by that time, there was no way to print out the assignments and get them into the registration packets. not pointing fingers as the service provider, but this seriously hampered our efforts.

again, thanks to everyone. and my apologies for those who were displeased and unhappy. but thank you for sharing your thoughts - i hope we can improve on many things for next year and your comments really help us.

sr20goofus · Post by **sr20goofus** » June 13th, 2007, 10:53 am

eluam wrote:I'm disappointed that I didn't have the money to sign up as a driver.

I'm still wondering how that red RSX was in the Novice group. He was lapping everyone each session and was much faster than 90% of the Novice cars.

word from some of the instructors was that even tho some of the cars were faster in Novice doesnt mean thdey were ready for intermediate or even advanced, some people had no consistancy with their line, wouldnt look in mirrors, werent doing what the instructor was saying, lack of smoothness and progression. i know there were quite a few beginners out there making novice and intermediate larger groupd of mixed skill level along with some people in advanced.

i was an advanced driver in the black nissan 240sx, i did what i could to point people by in sessions whe ni was working on certain things on track besides just going fast, and at the same times i was being held up by others who werent ready to point people by in areas that were straits like they may have been used to.

with the amount of experience, skill, age variations and all that were scattered through the groups its hard to complaim if you are at all understanding, i had a great time even after my brother sscguy had his off track excursion into the tirewall outside T10. Thank you expo coordinators and organizers for puttin up with all of the rowdyness so that everyone could have a great time, despite the beer natzi at the banquet

.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » June 13th, 2007, 11:50 am

Interesting...
But with the overall safety and no major on track 'things' the partying that goes on afterhours is not a big deal.

Just remember people will do stupid things when there are people watching, so if you know of something that you don't like about to happen or don't want to be part of it,,, Just walk away. (As I did this year)

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Chris N · Post by **Chris N** » June 13th, 2007, 2:51 pm

the partying is inherent in expo at this point. it always has been. its toned down but i think everyone knows about it who ventures into the itr forum on h-t or here from time to time.

i do understand it can be an annoyance, but those who go a bit afterhours tend to stay OFF track until they are in a state of mind to be ready to go back out. they may be partiers, but they are always smart about steering clear of the track for a good amount of time.

Hooch'n · Post by **Hooch'n** » June 13th, 2007, 6:10 pm

Chris N wrote:the partying is inherent in expo at this point. it always has been. its toned down but i think everyone knows about it who ventures into the itr forum on h-t or here from time to time.

i do understand it can be an annoyance, but those who go a bit afterhours tend to stay OFF track until they are in a state of mind to be ready to go back out. they may be partiers, but they are always smart about steering clear of the track for a good amount of time.

Please, if you don't like Expo stuff.........don't come to WE-Todd.

I hope i rolled you crx boy

splat · Post by **splat** » June 13th, 2007, 8:16 pm

Most of what I would say has already been covered, so I'll avoid the novel. I will say that Expo brings a wide variety of drivers, more so than any other HPDE out there. You've got people used to their favorite club or region branching out into something new, along with all the beginners who've never been on track before. Many of these people would never track their R or whatever if not for Expo.

A big THANK YOU to the organizers who seemed to be even more stressed than normal for this event.

I had a blast, as always. I was thinking this year was REALLY calm until I saw photos of the lodge

Then again, even that was calmer than usual. I guess we're getting old

Photos from me later on, and it's a shame most of y'all missed the Gold Cup vintage racing on Sunday. Well worth it.

Post by **98 CW ITR 322** » June 14th, 2007, 2:17 pm

Chris N wrote:I thought the on track manners were great. There were many novices - including most of the intermediate group. Many students progressed a long way, from absolute beginner. All things considered, I thought it went very well. Obviously there were things that could be fixed.

i was really impressed with everyone's attitude while in the car and at the track. The concentration level necessary is very high. I saw some students 'sitting out' on tuesday morning. I was one of 'em. Lack of enough sleep for several days prior (prepping car and driving up did take it's toll). Probably a good thing, and the only loss was their own. But on the track, people were VERY aware of cars behind them and in front of them, and we had very few incidences. I agree 100%. The novices I shared the track with maintained adequite and safe distancing and were quick to signal a pass.This is a difficult and daunting track for a first timer. All things considered I was impressed with the new guys. So was I.

We had a severe shortage of instructors. We did our best given this situation. Several people stepped up big time to keep us moving in the instructor department INCLUDING a guest, a driver, and several other instructors who picked up extras.
I did notice this and thought the instructors did an OUTSTANDING JOB!

Post by **98 CW ITR 322** » June 14th, 2007, 2:28 pm

Dave_B wrote:Disappointed? Why?

What run group were you in? Novice? I presume not, so at least advanced? Those guys, most of them, were moving pretty good from what I could tell. Int. had a few "slower" "newer" drivers but for the most part pointed by and that was that. We all have to start out "slower" when we move up a group. (Would he rather have new Int.'s driving over their heads?) I think after another HPDE I'm about ready for intermediate. Best way to advance is to go out with better drivers and learn from their technique, following their line, braking points, etc. I learn as much from watching other more advanced drivers as I do from driving the course myself.
Not everyone can/will be fast. A track like VIR (my first time there) is quite an experience. It's a lot different than the other tracks I've personally been to. Looking up at the tree line/sky just before Oak Tree and then again at the end of the back straight are just damn intimidating. Once you get over the "is there going to be track under me" your fine.
Exactly. I didn't go out to be fast, I went out to learn a new track.
Also I did several sussy, brake and powerplant mods to my car before VIR and went out to test the capabilities and limits of a very different car as well.

Sorry if you were disappointed, but if you were at least you still got to drive VIR.

Dave.

Well said Davis.

Comp97GSR · Post by **Comp97GSR** » June 14th, 2007, 3:03 pm

Simply put, at least people are going to the track and trying to learn how to handle their car. Many drive there cars from great distances to come to Expo. I for one won't put my car, my instructor, other people on the track or myself in danger. So if it means going through the uphill esses at 90-100mph is what I am comfortable with, so be it.

Most of the attendees are friends if I am not mistaken. Hanging out and having a few is part of Expo. I am sure you have seen pics from previous Expo's and knew that once the tracking was over that the partying began. Right? So why even bother coming? You set yourself up for being disappointed.

bbqman · Post by **bbqman** » June 15th, 2007, 4:51 pm

Great facility, great track and always nice to hang out with other ITR peeps.
For my part, I was quite reasonable with the partying....this track requires a lot of concentration to go fast.
If I was not driving however, I would be boozin'!!

Thanks to all the EXPO organisers, I know the work that it takes and you guys made it happen.

As for the lack of skill among certain run groups.... well isn't this a HPDE track event anyways??

George Knighton · Post by **George Knighton** » June 17th, 2007, 11:40 am

Bbasso wrote:Interesting...
But with the overall safety and no major on track 'things' ....

Actually, I have to say to you, yourself, that I overheard you on several occasions dealing with some things, and I was impressed with your sober maturity and instinct while dealing with what you were doing.

You only have these things once/year and your biggest concern is that you will attract a big number of very inexperienced people for whom this will be their only track event/year...or maybe /lifetime....and you just have to be careful.

With some measure of irony, the bigggest "events" were by people in the fastest groups, and I mean the wheel that flew off (Chad) and the nose-first crash after 10 (sscguy).

There were some very fast people there like Oscar and AJ. But there were also some slow people in the same group (Smitdog and me). All we can do is just get the hell out of the way and be faster with the pointing finger than we are with the driving.

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » June 17th, 2007, 8:00 pm

Perhaps the expectation was incorrect. Please realize that ITRCA is not any sanctioned 'fat pocket' organization like the Porsche or NSX club. We don't have 10,000 members paying annual dues.

This 1 time per year event is put on by numerous volunteers, of whom most no longer even have an R. The idea is to get people together who like to learn more about driving, and enjoy the company.

I appreciate all of the instructors efforts. Many pitched in to cover extra students. This speaks volumes over those that had to back out at the last minute which left us 'hanging' more than we expected.

If you have ever tried to put together an event like this, you would perhaps understand why it takes nearly 10 people working for 9 months to see success. No one takes any profit.

Oh yea - VIR would be glad to have us back... When security spoke to me about the lodge. We had the issue shut down in 10 minutes, thanks to communication between expo committee members. Sorry I couldn't do anything about the 50MM cannon target shooting

Good luck with future events.

BudMan

-edit >> The novice student that was signed off quickly is the best driver I have instructed in any run group. He is a 'natural' and other than not having any more than 2 expos worth of experience, I would let him drive my race car in a heartbeat...I'm already planning that for next year.

George Knighton · Post by **George Knighton** » June 17th, 2007, 8:47 pm

Was the signed off "novice" the red semi-Opak RSX?

I watched him a bit. He seemed like somebody who should be signed off.

Bbasso · Post by **Bbasso** » June 18th, 2007, 6:46 pm

Are you referring to the Red RSX with #111 ?
I passed him off to another insturctor to make sure I was correct in signing him off before I did give the all clear. He had never been at VIR before and was shakey for a while but did fall into the groove.

Thanks for the last comment GK, (I don't have steady acces to the www any more.)

BudMan · Post by **BudMan** » June 18th, 2007, 7:39 pm

George Knighton wrote:Was the signed off "novice" the red semi-Opak RSX?

I watched him a bit. He seemed like somebody who should be signed off.

Nope. I knew Ryan Curry in the black GSR was signed off quick. Next time he will begin in intermediate.

I never saw the red rsx on the track.

tartje · Post by **tartje** » June 19th, 2007, 11:25 am

BudMan wrote: -edit >> The novice student that was signed off quickly is the best driver I have instructed in any run group. He is a 'natural' and other than not having any more than 2 expos worth of experience, I would let him drive my race car in a heartbeat...I'm already planning that for next year.

obviously not seen me drive yet