180whp, my track times and future wants

Integra Type-R Discussion - Discuss general ITR information, technical information (including requests for technical/mechanical help/assistance), modifications, tuning, etc.
Locked
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

180whp, my track times and future wants

Post by 94vtec2tone »

well ive had the teg for quite some time now, hittin a year for me and im quite happy. but its time to try and bust 200whp. ive read alot of how its not that possibly on a c1 block unless heads pnp, valve job and other good mods. But ive made 180whp now and figure its time to try and make more power.

Current Mods:

Hytech Replica header with an adjustable test pipe
Apexi Ws2 exhaust. 2.36. rattles a little
Blox IM with hondata gasket
old aem cai with bypass valve
ps removed, actually does make more whp

Current Dyno.
Image

Possible next mods(UPDATED):

innovative motor mounts and avid torque mounts
BC spec 3+ cams with spoon cam gears
mugen intake and stock itr arm
edelbrock performer x manifold ported and matched
pnp head with 3 angle valve job and all that fun
supertech valvetrain
Jethot header and possibly intake arm
Skunk2 composity fuel rail
tune by mikey of pro function wiht ectune or a nepune rtp


things im thinkin about:
Jethot header and intake arm
skunk2 carbon composite
completely ported IM by cc cylinders, possible portmatch tb also
jethot IM

Ran my first time at the track a couple weekends ago.

best was a 15.003 at 94.5 mph i believe
60 ft was a 2.45. i know dropping some tire pressure will help cut them 60fts for sure. Amazing how bad some track times were of people who ran me.
Last edited by 94vtec2tone on April 25th, 2009, 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dave_B
Moderator
Posts: 9053
Joined: October 31st, 2005, 2:26 pm
Location: Post Whore!

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by Dave_B »

94vtec2tone wrote:well ive had the teg for quite some time now, hittin a year for me and im quite happy. but its time to try and bust 200whp. ive read alot of how its not that possibly on a c1 block unless heads pnp, valve job and other good mods. But ive made 180whp now and figure its time to try and make more power.

Current Mods:


Hytech Replica header with an adjustable test pipe
Apexi Ws2 exhaust. 2.36. rattles a little
Blox IM with hondata gasket
old aem cai with bypass valve
ps removed, actually does make more whp

Possible next mods:

ITR cams, Skunk2 stage 1's with cam gears
Bpi velocity stack from bryan of HT[/LI][LI]Jethot header and possibly intake arm
possibly looking for a better flowing IM that might make more midrange or topend
Skunk2 composity fuel rail
groudning kit, bought or made idk yet
tune by mikey of pro function wiht ectune or a nepune rtp

Most likely looking to run the skunk2 stage 1s with upgraded valve springs. Just found the thread on ti comparing lift, duration and some good info. it seems the skunk2 stage 1s will make better power cause of a little higher lift and a bigger duration over the itrs.

things im thinkin about:
Jethot header and intake arm
skunk2 carbon composite
completely ported IM by cc cylinders, possible portmatch tb also
jethot IM

curious on if i should port the blox IM or the gsr one and remove the butterflies so it all flows as one

also figured a good coilover set mite help in my launching and drop a little weight up front. other than that all i can think of is lighweight rims by ssr, or gram.
WOW... where to start... I think your looking into wrong mods...

Removing the PS does NOT make more wheel horse power. While it free's up some load on the motor, it does NOT make power. :)

I'm going on a limb here and guessing this is a GS-R... Why the blox IM? Is it because you have a GS-R motor and didn't like the dual setup of the GS-R IM? What size is that blox IM? Is it the one identical to the ITR inake manifold? If larger, I would say it's hurting your setup more than helping.

The bypass valve on your AIM is LOOSING power... my suggestion if it's cut is to remove the lower section and make is a SRI. Try putting the velocity stack from BPI there, not at the end.

Your not making enough power to justify a different IM. Read comments above. If same as ITR mani, leave it alone.

Jet hot coating the header and intake arm will only make very marginal differences... so little that I'd spend the $$$ elsewhere.

Why change the fuel rail? No need... you don't need that much fuel at the moment/current setup. Another waste of $$$ in my opinion.

Grounding kit? Where you getting your information from? Not here or HT... and why I said where to start. The grounding kit is NOT going to gain you any more WHP... if you have a stereo or something it will help with not dimming the lights when the bass hits.

The Skunk 2 stage 1 cams are almost on par with ITR cams... if you want more and are already thinking of upgrading valve train then look into stage 2's... BUT... while we are on the topic of WHP and gains... I would only do the stage 2's if you up'd the CR by changing pistons. Since this is a GS-R we are speaking of... it's even less CR than an ITR piston.

If I were you... I'd sell off that intake mani (if bigger than an ITR one) and some other parts... I would look into a quality intake (Mugen is what I prefer, but AEM will work) quality header like a Toda, SMSP or real Hytech (there is a difference, big difference) I'd change the exhaust to a true 2.5" ID exhaust. Get your bolt ons squared away first. Then start looking internal. Pistons and cams.

I think you can hit 200 WHP... but your going down the wrong road at the moment. Sit back, read up on what others have done and then make informed decisions.

Hope you don't take any of this as insults, that's not what I'm trying to do. But you seem very mis-informed on how to get to 200 WHP... it's not cheap, or easy without going to internals.
http://www.picperformance.com

PIC Performance and Amsoil authorized distributor.
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

dave i take none of that as an insult to be honest.

Im thinkin either to make a bpi velocity on a 3inch arm or run it on my arm now at the end. id prefer to run the bpi a little closer to the radiator because where its cut, dum place. its super tight with a stock filter. the cai happened to make 3-5whp from 3k up over the sri just to let you know.

removing ps doesnt make hp, but it does free up stolen hp that i know. maybe i worded it wrong.

the blox has specs on team integra or hondatech somewhere. i was just doin dumshit back then and figured it was a good mod. but from what i read the stock mani doesnt flow quite as well uptop as the type r style blox.

why would the bypass valve be hurting my performance btw?

fuel rail and groudning kit i have basically ixnayed on, cut them out cause its not a good idea at all.

the skunk2 stage 1s do have bigger duration and lift than the itrs i have read that for sure. i current do not know if im going to bolt in cams and gears and tune it like that. or do a full head build yet.

i would prefer to make my exhaust a 2.5 by hytech its not a cheap mod but its a twinpass and true 2.5ID

i have gotten a few posts saying my numbers are inflated which personally i cant say they are or arent. i know i got it dynoed and this is what i got.

i am currently looking, or looking into. porting the intake manifold, either the blox or 2stage gsr. wondering about taking the butterflies out completely and porting the whole manifold because of the way its built.

jethot coating seems like it would help a little with the intake temps and the engine bay temps
Dave_B
Moderator
Posts: 9053
Joined: October 31st, 2005, 2:26 pm
Location: Post Whore!

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by Dave_B »

94vtec2tone wrote:dave i take none of that as an insult to be honest.

Im thinkin either to make a bpi velocity on a 3inch arm or run it on my arm now at the end. id prefer to run the bpi a little closer to the radiator because where its cut, dum place. its super tight with a stock filter. the cai happened to make 3-5whp from 3k up over the sri just to let you know.

removing ps doesnt make hp, but it does free up stolen hp that i know. maybe i worded it wrong.

the blox has specs on team integra or hondatech somewhere. i was just doin dumshit back then and figured it was a good mod. but from what i read the stock mani doesnt flow quite as well uptop as the type r style blox.

why would the bypass valve be hurting my performance btw?

fuel rail and groudning kit i have basically ixnayed on, cut them out cause its not a good idea at all.

the skunk2 stage 1s do have bigger duration and lift than the itrs i have read that for sure. i current do not know if im going to bolt in cams and gears and tune it like that. or do a full head build yet.

i would prefer to make my exhaust a 2.5 by hytech its not a cheap mod but its a twinpass and true 2.5ID

i have gotten a few posts saying my numbers are inflated which personally i cant say they are or arent. i know i got it dynoed and this is what i got.

i am currently looking, or looking into. porting the intake manifold, either the blox or 2stage gsr. wondering about taking the butterflies out completely and porting the whole manifold because of the way its built.

jethot coating seems like it would help a little with the intake temps and the engine bay temps
While the CAI version will make more WHP, if it wasn't cut for the bypass it would make more, and the reason I said run in SRI config. :) That cut for the bypass is having a negative effect on overall performance of your CAI. Without that bypass I'd be willing to bet in CAI configuration it makes more than it does now.

Correct, but removing the PS is not something you'd feel (in terms of more HP) it's more of a feel (for me and most that track their cars) of the road. Once you drive a car with, and without PS on the track, you will notice quite a bit of difference in the "feel" of the car. You'd probably have more "effect" of weight savings than HP by removing the PS.

Correct, on a GS-R, the manifold does not flow higher RPM's like an ITR style intake. Just wanted to question why the change (and if like a stock ITR mani, a good change btw)

The bypass valve will hurt the CAI config performance because it allows air to go from the intake filter and back out the valve. It's also not a smooth transition to the upper tubing area.

Good idea on the grounding kit and fuel rail.

While I agree there is a little difference in the ITR and S2 Stage 1's... you won't see much difference on a dyno (and your looking for WHP numbers here, so if your going to go and do cams, my suggestion is Stage 2's.)

IMO, the Hytech exhaust is one of the best on the market. I'm looking to get rid of my Mugen TL for one of these. While expensive, getting to 200 WHP is expensive in the first place.

What others mean by "inflated" is the correction rating on the dyno... but you can't just go by that. Different dyno's read different numbers and weather conditions play a HUGE role in the numbers. Exact same cars also, dyno'd back to back will make different numbers with exact same mods. Altitude also plays a role in dyno numbers.

At the moment, I don't, in my opinion think you have the mods to support porting the intake manifold (and I would definitely do the Blox ITR style vs. the GS-R one even with butterflies removed) Now if you had some head work, better flowing intake/exhaust/header and some cams, then I would look into this, but only after doing the other mods first.

While coating might help a little bit, the cost of having those items coated could get you a better intake (mugens come up used for around $500) or other mods. I understand what your trying to get to by reducing intake temps, but remember, it's a CAI configuration and made out of Aluminum. It's not going to get heat soak like a SRI setup.

Again though, I think in order to get to your goal of 200 WHP on a C1 block, your going to have to change pistons. My suggestion when/if you decide you want to do that is a set of JDM P30 pistons, and not CTR pistons. While a CTR piston will yeild a higher CR, it also has a higher dome and leads to detonation. Also, the CTR piston is the heaviest B series OEM piston.

The reason I stand behind the higher quality parts/mods is simple... I have an ITR with very minimal mods making 192 WHP (could go more, but was building the car to Honda Challenge H2 specs) That 192 WHP was acheived with only a Mugen intake, SMSP header, SMSP Race exhaust (do NOT recommend this for a street car, you WILL get pulled over) Hondata IM gasket and Mugen head gasket. All of the rest is either stock, or will not affect performance.

On my other car, I have P30 pistons, Skunk2 Pro 1 cams, Mugen head gasket, Mugen intake, stage 2 P&P head with supertech valve springs and valves, SMSP header, test pipe, Mugen TL exhaust, Hondata IM gasket. Without any tuning, I'm already at 192 WHP, and without even changing the IM/TB (which I need to do because I start sucking vaccum at 7k RPM) I could easily tune to over 200 WHP, but I'm also near sea level (Florida) which will affect the dyno numbers.

I guess what I'm getting at is when you set a goal, you have to sit back and think how your going to realistically get to that goal. Set a budget. That will determine what mods/manufacturers of parts you use. Look at the big picture and how mod 1. will work with mod 2. you don't want to have to turn around and sell parts for a loss, when you could have gotten what you needed in the first place.

Dave
http://www.picperformance.com

PIC Performance and Amsoil authorized distributor.
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

dave could you post anymore lol. well let me reply to this one.

if that cai made more power than it does now id be amazed. im more looking into a bpi velocity or sad to say a mugen "you know the hype intake they say".

i took the ps out to clean the engine bay up to be honest. it making a little more whp is great and all but my intentions are to make the engine look clean as could be.

the blox has a bigger plenum. same runner width at port and same tb opening size. the stock throttle body however is a 62mm i think. i think going to a 66mm and matching would help out.

the bypass dotn help in performance but does for sure help in prevention of water intake. thats y im most likely going bpi or mugen for winter and probalby permanent. so no more worries about water induction.

cams havent been decided at this time. but i figure id run a ported gsr head, supertech valvetrain. port match the intake side to the intake manifold and port the whole manifold cause of all the rigidity and divits in the manifold.

and 850 for a hytech exhaust i think woudl be well worth it. ill end up doing that before the tune most likely. im trying to get track numbers soon to see if i can verify that it makes near the whp it dynos at. if i get a 15.0 then you know its inflated. if im doin 14.5's or close than you know my whp isnt too far off. thats how i will determine

and yes dave ive stopped my purchasing so i can do it right all at once instead of piece by piece. thats my main goal man. thanks for the help so far
Dave_B
Moderator
Posts: 9053
Joined: October 31st, 2005, 2:26 pm
Location: Post Whore!

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by Dave_B »

94vtec2tone wrote:dave could you post anymore lol. well let me reply to this one.

if that cai made more power than it does now id be amazed. im more looking into a bpi velocity or sad to say a mugen "you know the hype intake they say".

i took the ps out to clean the engine bay up to be honest. it making a little more whp is great and all but my intentions are to make the engine look clean as could be.

the blox has a bigger plenum. same runner width at port and same tb opening size. the stock throttle body however is a 62mm i think. i think going to a 66mm and matching would help out.

the bypass dotn help in performance but does for sure help in prevention of water intake. thats y im most likely going bpi or mugen for winter and probalby permanent. so no more worries about water induction.

cams havent been decided at this time. but i figure id run a ported gsr head, supertech valvetrain. port match the intake side to the intake manifold and port the whole manifold cause of all the rigidity and divits in the manifold.

and 850 for a hytech exhaust i think woudl be well worth it. ill end up doing that before the tune most likely. im trying to get track numbers soon to see if i can verify that it makes near the whp it dynos at. if i get a 15.0 then you know its inflated. if im doin 14.5's or close than you know my whp isnt too far off. thats how i will determine

and yes dave ive stopped my purchasing so i can do it right all at once instead of piece by piece. thats my main goal man. thanks for the help so far
It won't be much, maybe 2-3 WHP up top... but I have seen dyno plots over the years, and there is definitely a difference when running the bypass.

How is the Mugen the hype intake? All of the charts I've seen show it outperform all others on the market. This done in several conditions/scenario's. Only once have I seen the AEM CAI make more. But most often, it's the Mugen right at the top of the list.

Understood. Just a misconception on the AC and PS... that's all.

You can go to a bigger TB, or have yours bore'd out a bit. If you plan on changing pistons, then keep the IM. Better air flow than the GS-R one.

I totally understand why you put the bypass on, I live in FL... It rains here ALL THE TIME!!! Just be smart about it... you can still go into shallow puddles, but if you think something is going to be to deep, turn the car off, and coast through it. ;) I used to run an AEM V2 on my old GS-R and never had any issues with water or hydrolock.

When it comes time for the cams, think about the whole picture (even when you thinking about pistons, they go hand in hand really) Bigger cams need more compression. You can over cam these engines pretty easily. Also, if you go up in cams, definitely contact the manufacturer of the valve train to find out what will be needed for XYZ cams. Personally, even in my build I never went to Ti retainers due to having to change them regularly. (IIRC, most folks say around 15-20k miles) I just bought a new set of OEM retainers and called it a day.

$850 for the exhaust? Where? If it's that cheap for new ones these days... maybe I'll make the switch sooner! I've always seen them way more than that.

Your method of determining WHP via track times doesn't seem so acurate... there are so many factors that determine your ET that no 2 runs are identical. What if there's something on the track (oil) what if one run it's hotter outside than the other one (we run at night, so over the night it cools off) then there's humidity too. That's all not to mention you launch exactly the same every single time with exactly the same amount (or lack) of wheel spin. You can find a lot of places that will do a dyno run session (usually 2-3 pulls) for sub $100 Even then, dyno's are different... Mustangs vs. DynoJet vs. others. None will read the same numbers as the others.

One other thing, breifly mentioned... tuning. Have you spoken to your tuner to find out what EMS he prefers? Or are you going to pick your tuner based on what EMS you already have?

Good idea on getting a game plan first, then spending the $$$
http://www.picperformance.com

PIC Performance and Amsoil authorized distributor.
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

seeing as this whole conversation is just me and you dave. haha ohwell its good.

I hear nothing of good things about the bpi velocity stacks on a 2.75 or 3 inch intake arm. which mite be a route i would go. theres a lot of people who rep them and say there good.

i say mugens the "hype" intake becuase if you ever post it all you hear is how it doenst make much more power and is ridiculous. personally i wanna test one out.

im going to bore out my stock one. no need in buying a new one when this one will do. i do not think im going to change pistons at all man.

and i know some cams need bigger compression but itr's, skunk2 stage 1 or 2 i figure will be able to work. nothing like a pro 1 or 2 or anything. i dont plan on doin the bottom end for a while.

go to hytechs exhust site man. he charges 1100 for a 3inch. and 850 for the 2.5 without cat though.

guy i will be going to says just running it on an ectune or something simple. i mite run a hondata but idk yet. and like u said and i have said money first then purchases all at once so its done right
Dave_B
Moderator
Posts: 9053
Joined: October 31st, 2005, 2:26 pm
Location: Post Whore!

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by Dave_B »

94vtec2tone wrote:seeing as this whole conversation is just me and you dave. haha ohwell its good.

I hear nothing of good things about the bpi velocity stacks on a 2.75 or 3 inch intake arm. which mite be a route i would go. theres a lot of people who rep them and say there good.

i say mugens the "hype" intake becuase if you ever post it all you hear is how it doenst make much more power and is ridiculous. personally i wanna test one out.

im going to bore out my stock one. no need in buying a new one when this one will do. i do not think im going to change pistons at all man.

and i know some cams need bigger compression but itr's, skunk2 stage 1 or 2 i figure will be able to work. nothing like a pro 1 or 2 or anything. i dont plan on doin the bottom end for a while.

go to hytechs exhust site man. he charges 1100 for a 3inch. and 850 for the 2.5 without cat though.

guy i will be going to says just running it on an ectune or something simple. i mite run a hondata but idk yet. and like u said and i have said money first then purchases all at once so its done right
I've heard mixed reviews on the BPI... it's a great buy on a budget. And I'd go this route if Mugen was NOT an option.

I think your gathering your information from the wrong sources. While I agree, it's an expensive intake take the cost factor out. Mugen intake has been proven time and time again vs. other intakes. The reason you hear so much "bitching" if you will is over it's $700 price tag. But if you want top of the line, you have to pay to play. There is only one dyno graph that I have ever personally seen that shows an AEM CAI over the Mugen and that's only at 7k + RPM... While I agree, peak power is "nice" It's the power under the curve I'm most after. How often are you going to be "cruising" at 6500 + RPM's? On track (road course) yes, a lot... but IIRC your after Drag racing. I personally like throttle response and usable power, both of which the Mugen has a lot of!

I think, with a C1 motor, not swapping out pistons will be the limiting factor on hitting 200 WHP. If not going with Pistons I wouldn't even look to cams. You won't see the gains as much without higher CR pistons. While you might see a little (maybe 2-3 WHP) I don't think it would be worth the hassle/work to do it. Even with "lesser" cams, I still don't think it would be wise. If your going to do the bottom end later and go to a higher CR piston, I would wait on cams.

Maybe I was thinking the header was $1300 or so. Wasn't thinking straight. LOL. There is still a min. 6 month wait on them though, keep that in mind.

My suggestion on EMS would be find a tuner first and let him/her know what your goals are and how to plan to achieve those goals. From there, find out what EMS they prefer. It's much easier to find a local tuner and use what EMS they prefer, than to go with what EMS you prefer and have to tow the car to the closest tuner who tunes those EMS's. Example... nobody around me tunes hondata anymore. I have to go at least 60 miles to get my car tuned. With gas prices the way they are... it just all adds up.
http://www.picperformance.com

PIC Performance and Amsoil authorized distributor.
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

he was the guy to suggest ectune cause its like 500tuned. 300 to tune and 200 to chip and everything.

i dont doubt mugen is much better but atm do not have the funds for it. id like to run it to see.

and id prefer not to swap out pistons and at most run some p30s so it would bump compression up to 10.6 i beelive and maybe a thinner head gasket.

and ya his waiting list is ridiculous. teh guy who dynoed said its a good setup i woudlnt change anything i cant get more out of it. i say i can and i will
Dave_B
Moderator
Posts: 9053
Joined: October 31st, 2005, 2:26 pm
Location: Post Whore!

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by Dave_B »

94vtec2tone wrote:he was the guy to suggest ectune cause its like 500tuned. 300 to tune and 200 to chip and everything.

i dont doubt mugen is much better but atm do not have the funds for it. id like to run it to see.

and id prefer not to swap out pistons and at most run some p30s so it would bump compression up to 10.6 i beelive and maybe a thinner head gasket.

and ya his waiting list is ridiculous. teh guy who dynoed said its a good setup i woudlnt change anything i cant get more out of it. i say i can and i will
Gotcha. Ya ask local tuners or whom you'd trust to tune and go from there.

I hear ya!!! They aren't cheap, that's for sure. LOL Mugen and cheap don't go together... :P

It's not a problem not to swap pistons, but in the goal for 200 WHP, I think it would be a must. That or your going to have to step it up on the bolt ons, meaning a really good header like Toda, SMSP or Hytech, and a good exhaust/intake. And even then you'll still need other supporting mods.
http://www.picperformance.com

PIC Performance and Amsoil authorized distributor.
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

mugen i mite do later on but saving that long for an intake is hard to do when i have a local shop i go to all the time and find these parts at a good deal. plus gotta support a local shop.

i could run a jrsc for the cost of building the head thats the sad part. while i have never done either i plan on learning this whole experience and being able to help anyone else.

i feel to post a few pics, hope its not against the rules. figure all the talk mine as well show off whta im workin with

Image
Image
Image


btw sorry still cant resize the phtotos, dont know how
Last edited by 94vtec2tone on January 1st, 2009, 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

New update:

Changed to the type r throttle body due to clearance issues i would have with the pwjdm 3point strut. changed to the ls throttle cable. fixed the sticky throttle most the time its still a little odd sometimees just needs a full adjusting.

62mm vs the stock 59mm and ya its definetely a bigger tb bore wise u can tell.

hoping to throw it on the dyno but dont know if it hurt or help. still workin on going for headwork,cams and ported IM.
Image

thats how it sits for a bit
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: goal for 200whp. comments wanted

Post by 94vtec2tone »

the only thing i have picked up lately is the type r throttle body

still looking for opinions. within the next 2 weeks or so should be gettin the innovative motor mounts and avid torque mounts

how it looks now
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ce43gk.jpg
94vtec2tone
New ITRCA Member
Posts: 52
Joined: July 2nd, 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: 180whp, my track times and future wants

Post by 94vtec2tone »

well bout the only update i got is:
bpi velocity stack
Blox a cams bein put in by the latest wednesday then either a dyno pull or a full tune depending on the cash i got.



post b4 and after dyno graphs when i get em
Locked