Toda modified 205 whp ITR engine - What do you think?

[descartesfool]

I have seen many dyno curves for ITR normally aspirated engines, but few have over 200 whp. I have been curious about the project ITR car that Toda describes on their web site, which has 205 whp, quite a lot. You can see it at their site http://www.todaracing.com/topics/project_cars/itr.html. The mods they list are the following:

Engine:
• TODA Racing Spec B camshafts
• TODA Racing GEN2 Campulleys
• TODA Racing Dual Valve Springs
• TODA Racing 0.6mm Headgasket
• TODA Racing 81mm High Compression Piston Kit
• TODA Racing Road Race Exhaust Manifold
• TODA Racing Oil Pump Gear
• Portflow Ported Cylinder Head (Deshrouded to provide 11.5 : 1 Compression)
• PortflowTitanium Retainers
• COMPTECH USA ICEBOX Air Intake System

This car (with fewer mods) was featured in Sport Compact Car. I was wondering if anyone else knew of a setup to exceed 200 whp with a 1.8 liter ITR, and perhaps a little cheaper. Does anyone know the cost and hp gain from the Portflow ported cylinder head when used with many other mods. The reason I am interested is that the Toda setup above seems like it would make a good motor for a track/road car.

[George Knighton]

I was wondering if anyone else knew of a setup to exceed 200 whp with a 1.8 liter ITR, and perhaps a little cheaper.

Well...my own car has 192 HP on a Dynojet, and uses stock cams.

They could've gone to 200, but at the sacrifice of the midrange.

Does anyone know the cost and hp gain from the Portflow ported cylinder head when used with many other mods. The reason I am interested is that the Toda setup above seems like it would make a good motor for a track/road car.

Not sure how much HP would be directly attributable to the porting/polishing, but when they were looking at my head, they found a 12% casting shift on one exhaust port. Fixing that one anomaly would've been about 4 HP by itself, wouldn't it?

I'm guessing a port/polish ITR head job would be $900 - $1200.

I can't claim to know everything--just trying to give you a little more information.

[descartesfool]

George,

I have seen your engine dyno curve and it looks very good. Could you take a few moments to list the mods with price for each. Also how much time on dyno and how much did that cost. The reason I was impressed with the Toda numbers is that 205 hp is almost 15 hp above even your very respectable numbers, and this is why I was curious about any others having exceeded 200 hp and how they did it and how much it cost. I am not sure if 200 whp is some magic # for an ITR, but it seems like a nice round number to get one's juices going, but perhaps not at the expense of the midrange. By the way did you get a curve with 200 hp and how much midrange did it sacrifice?

[Aj]

it's not that hard to push over 200, it's just a matter of how much money you want to dump into it, and how much down time you're willing to deal with. The setup that I'm in the process of building, I'm hoping will put down in the neighborhood of around 220whp, though, the jury is still out on that one.

Last motor I blew up put down 192whp on pump gas, and with the timing advanced on C16 it put down just below 205.

This go around, I'm using Darton sleeves with an 84.5mm or 85mm bore, havn't yet decided, either is about two liters...hahahaha....about the size of a 7up bottle....hahahaah.

Any way, this time I'm using Crower rods (DON'T BUY EAGLE RODS), JE pistons, and also lowering the compression some, to 12:1, rather than the almost 13:1 I was running before, which I hope will be made up for by displacement. For cams I'm using Toda Spec-C, a little over kill perhaps, but at this point, what the heck.

As far as valve train, I have a mix of components, due to salvaged parts from previous motors, I'm using skunk2 springs and retainers, Rev valves, cause my Ferreas were bent in my last mishap, and since both companies are local, I decided to compare, in this case, the Rev valves just seemed to be of higher quality and consistancy. I'm reusing the same ferrea valve guides as I see no reason not to. And acutally per my disaster, prior to this one, had some custom cut Martin Wells valve seats, which thankfully remained unscathed after this last motor.

On a side note, this time I splurged and bought the Toda cam gears, and sold my skunk2 gears, becuase after carefully inspecting them, and utilizing a friends top dead center finder on my motor, I found that the markings were off on by -1.3 degrees on the intake and -.8 degrees on the exhaust, so they both had to be advanced to be at true TDC. I called GroupA(Skunk2) about it, and they said that it could be due to a lot of reasons, but didn't give me a good one???? Basically, they just said they knew, and there wasn't anything that they were planning on doing about it. Any way, and I know that this may make me somewhat of a hypocrite, as ordinarily, I wouldn't recomend it, but I also got the Toda timing belt, mainly cause I got such a good deal on it, and it's just another form of insurance, especially running cams with a 12.8mm lift.

As far as head porting goes, more than horse power, it provides consistancy, it helps reduce heat soak, mainly due to the better flow tendencies. I tried calling Port Flo for a better explanation, and they gave me one, I just didn't understand most of what he said...hahaha, but seriously, from what little understanding I have, it's more a consistency thing, rather than just hp, especially on an all motor car.

Do understand one thing, in order to get up in the 2 and change area with regard to hp, you will be spending a pretty good amount of money, that I assure you.

Good luck, let us know what you put togather. If you need some tips, ask away...

Later,
Aj

[George Knighton]

George,

I have seen your engine dyno curve and it looks very good. Could you take a few moments to list the mods with price for each. Also how much time on dyno and how much did that cost.

I don't mean to be ignoring you: I don't have all the bills in, yet.

The dyno time would be about $300.

Hondata would be $650.

Head work is probably retail about $800.

Intake has been both a Comptech Icebox and something Dave at SMSP put together...filter on a stick w/a proper taper to the throttle body.

IHE is SMSP all the way back, but with a Carsound cat. No straight pipe.

[descartesfool]

In order to get a range of cost in terms of $/hp, I looked up the list prices (apply any discount you can get) for the parts listed on the Toda project ITR.

Engine:

• TODA Racing Spec B camshafts__________________________$980
• TODA Racing GEN2 Campulleys__________________________$300
• TODA Racing Dual Valve Springs_________________________$360
• TODA Racing 0.6mm Headgasket_________________________$195
• TODA Racing 81mm High Compression Piston Kit_____________$880
• TODA Racing Road Race Exhaust Manifold__________________$980
• TODA Racing Oil Pump Gear_____________________________$300
• Portflow Ported Cylinder Head (Deshrouded to provide 11.5 : 1
Compression)_________________________________________$900
• PortflowTitanium Retainers______________________________$160
• COMPTECH USA ICEBOX Air Intake System $189 + $169 =_____$358

Total_______________________________________________$5413

The Toda site does not list any ECU changes, Fuel supply changes, adapter for 2.5" exhaust, gaskets, etc. ( and of course no labour or machining or tuning costs). So just the parts listed improved the whp from 163 to 205 for a gain of 42 whp, or $129/whp plus unlisted costs above. Probably at least another $1000 for unlisted costs which takes us to $6413 or $153/hp. Seems to me like expensive hp, and I think once George can get in all his prices, his way may be cheaper and a lot less labour. Just have to figure out what other bolt-ons can take it over the ton ! (well 200 whp anyway without sacrificing mid-range of course).

[SMSP]

Here is what was done to George's car.

Block: Stock B18C5 with 70k miles
Cylinder Head Gasket: Stock
Cylinder Head: Valve Job and Porting performed by DFE. This was his full street P&P, $900
Cams: Stock
Cam Gears: Skunk2, Retail $250
Intake: DFE again but only work done in the runners
Intake Manifold Gasket: Hondata Race
Injectors: Stock ITR 240cc but with the RC Engineering touch
CAI: Custom SMSP with smooth taper to match TB ID, I don't have a price on this, we've since put the Comp Tech back on to keep it quiet.
Air Filter: K&N
ECU: Hondata S100, please check Hondata web site for prices
Tuning: SGT, check with Steve for rates.
Header: SMSP w/ aftermarket cam "option" $975
Cat: Carsound/SMSP 93506 OBDI, $165
Cat Back: Custom 2-1/2" SMSP w/ (2) light weight resonators and (1) rear muffler Pricing not set yet.


Did you see the full Toda curve or only get the peak numbers? George's engine produced a peak of 138 lb-ft and made 125 lb-ft or more from 4300-8000. You'll need after market cams to get to 205 whp but with that comes springs and retainers most likely so you are talking a lot of extra $ for that extra hp only at the very top end of the power band.

[George Knighton]

Did you see the full Toda curve or only get the peak numbers?

George's engine produced a peak of 138 lb-ft and made 125 lb-ft or more from 4300-8000.

You'll need after market cams to get to 205 whp but with that comes springs and retainers most likely so you are talking a lot of extra $ for that extra hp only at the very top end of the power band.

Wanted to repeat a couple of points. It was always their intention to provide an example of a "practical" project that wouldn't cost too much.

[Aj]

That all depends on what you consider costing "too much"

[George Knighton]

That all depends on what you consider costing "too much"

Well, ummm...yes. For example, many people would think the whole Toda route is "too much."

[Aj]

Yup, agreed...

[Erik B]

With my old NA setup I made 194whp and 130lbs of tq. I was running:

Spoon header $800
Spoon head gasket $120
2.5 inch test pipe from Godspeed $50
stock exhaust PRICELESS...
Toda Spec B's and upgraded springs
Toda cam gears $1500
AEM CAI $230
B&M FPR $50?
VAFC $330
TUNING $500

not bad but not worth it to me.....should have boosted from the go and would be making about 350 by now.....

[descartesfool]

SMSP wrote:

Did you see the full Toda curve or only get the peak numbers? George's engine produced a peak of 138 lb-ft and made 125 lb-ft or more from 4300-8000.

I have not seen the curve for the Toda project ITR's current set-up, but there is a curve posted for a previous iteration of the same car with fewer mods and about 197 whp. Check it out at http://www.dynocenter.com/00R_BspecTodas.html.

The mods at the time were:
• TODA Racing Spec B camshafts__________________________$980
• TODA Racing GEN2 Campulleys__________________________$300
• TODA Racing Oil Pump Gear_____________________________$300
• TODA Racing High Power Clutch Kit (not part of hp upgrade)
• AEM Intake__________________________________________$215
• MUGEN 4-1 Header____________________________________$975
• RANDOM TECH Catalytic Converter (modified to fit larger JDM flange)
• MUGEN (~2.36" dia) twin-loop muffler & USDM Mugen (60mm only) B-pipe
(a little hard to price the exhaust listed)_____________________$975

I assume since TODA recommends it that their valve springs were also used, but they were not listed on the test.
• TODA Racing Dual Valve Springs_________________________$360


Total_______________________________________________$4105

That is a 34 hp increase giving a cost of $121/whp compared to the $129/whp increase for the current TODA setup.

You can judge for yourself by looking at the dyno curve that for the blue curve torque was 125 lb-ft from 5200-8200 RPM with a peak of about 134 lb-ft. The difference between the Toda car now and before is the change from a Mugen to a Toda header (current muffler setup not listed), addition of high compression pistons and head gasket, ported head and titanium reatainers. The earlier mod is quite close to 200 whp, and obviously is much closer to just bolt-ons, since the pistons, head gasket and and head don't need to come off. That is a lot of work for an extra 8 whp! Perhaps one of Dave's headers and exhaust sytems intead of the Toda/Mugen listed but with the other TODA mods would take it over the 200 mark without all the engine work. What do you think?

[descartesfool]

SMSP wrote:

Here is what was done to George's car.

Block: Stock B18C5 with 70k miles
Cylinder Head Gasket: Stock
Cylinder Head: Valve Job and Porting performed by DFE. This was his full street P&P, $900
Cams: Stock
Cam Gears: Skunk2, Retail $250
Intake: DFE again but only work done in the runners
Intake Manifold Gasket: Hondata Race
Injectors: Stock ITR 240cc but with the RC Engineering touch
CAI: Custom SMSP with smooth taper to match TB ID, I don't have a price on this, we've since put the Comp Tech back on to keep it quiet.
Air Filter: K&N
ECU: Hondata S100, please check Hondata web site for prices
Tuning: SGT, check with Steve for rates.
Header: SMSP w/ aftermarket cam "option" $975
Cat: Carsound/SMSP 93506 OBDI, $165
Cat Back: Custom 2-1/2" SMSP w/ (2) light weight resonators and (1) rear muffler Pricing not set yet.

The missing prices here are the Hondata S100 which George gave as $650
Intake Manifold Gasket: Hondata Race $65
Injectors: Stock ITR 240cc but with the RC Engineering touch $100
CAI: Comptech to keep it quiet with filter $358
Cat Back: Custom 2-1/2" SMSP (I'm guessing) $500

Total to match George's car (without tuning or labour) $3963

This is for a 192-162 stock whp gain of 30 hp, which gives $132/hp.
The 205 hp Toda car is somehwere between $129-$153/hp depending upon unlisted costs
The old 197 hp Toda car was $121/hp with no costs for ECU changes
Erik B's 194 hp NA motor above adds up to $3080 or $96/hp (in this very short poll, Erik wins the cheapest hp increase award even though it was unsatisfactory for him!)

The above engines are quite different in terms of mods, some with headwork, some with cam changes, one with piston changes. All with header changes but some with stock exhaust. They do all have the common factor that you are looking at a range of $96/hp to $132/hp or more to get even close to 200 whp, plus tuning and labour costs. Thus at these rates to get to 200 whp, it is going to cost at least $3648 to $5016, and I suspect much closer to the high number as the last hp costs a lot more than the first hp.

It would be interesting to know what just high performance headers can do. Hytech on their web site claim a 22 whp increase on an ITR with just their complete header/exhaust for $1300+800=$2100 or $95/hp. While this is likely the most expensive header out there, if the numbers are true it is about the best $/hp one could spend. However I have no idea what hidden costs might be required to get that extra 22 hp. Perhaps Dave can tell us what hp one of his complete systems makes in comparison.

Also has anyone else got a motor combo with cost for a 200 whp (or getting there) ITR NA motor?

[George Knighton]

Wow. Does an Icebox really cost that much? I really think you can get them quite a bit cheaper if you keep your eyes open. I swear, I don't remember paying anything close to that.

Please keep in mind that my car was put together with the specific goal of:

• (1)Maintaining on-street tractability and good feel on the street, and
  
  (2)Giving me a car to use on the track that would account for my driving style and experience level, and keep me from getting caught off the cam in a corner.

I am absolutely positive that there's an easy five or more horsepower in there, if they were going for peak HP.

In my case, it would've been a mistake to go for peak HP, so (forgive me) I think this skews your dollars per horsepower figgers a little bit.

[Trey]

I paid $150 for a used Icebox with filter. I run the stock intake arm and see no ill effects to it.

[BryanSprinkel]

I paid $150 for a used Icebox with filter. I run the stock intake arm and see no ill effects to it.

George also uses the stock intake arm, but the dyno in question shouldnt include the price for the ice box, since it wasnt used. Dave (SMS) made a filter on a stick combo.

With that being said, the same car (George's ITR) made 182.xx whp with the following mod's. Using the same "160 hp" number from above means a 22 hp increase. (just to note, I am pretty sure Georges ITR only made 158 hp in stock trim)

SMS catback - $500 (estimated cost)
OEM JDM ITR header - $350
SMS Carsound cat - $125
Comptech Ice box - $169 (new per Comptechs website)

Total - $1144

So, $1144 / 22hp = $52 per hp increase. Not too shabby for less than $1200.

[Trey]

The onlything in question Brian is the Ari Filter. Comptechs is pricey and included in the post above I think.

I have a comptech filter but also use a K&N filter mounted on a modfied piece of an old stock filter. Cost was $30.

Trey

[BryanSprinkel]

The onlything in question Brian is the Ari Filter. Comptechs is pricey and included in the post above I think.

I have a comptech filter but also use a K&N filter mounted on a modfied piece of an old stock filter. Cost was $30.

The post wasnt directed at you or anyone in particular, just wanted to go along with what George was saying about the "$358" price tag for the ice box. I made my own Ice box, and used the comptech filter($68.), which at the time was the only drop in for less than $125 (monster, and spoon filters). My car was by no means a dyno monster. It made 176.xx with a JDM header, carsound cat, comptech filter, and a stock b'pipe with a spoon N1. It was still a fun car..

[descartesfool]

For all the mods on which I got prices, I mentioned above I used list prices to make comparisons simple. Obviously parts can be had cheaper (new & used). However how cheap one can get parts could be part of whole new thread! With regards to the list prices on the Comptech icebox, from their site:

Ice Box, 94-01 Type R & LS/RS/GS $169.00
"Must be used with either the Comptech Intake Kit,
or Comptech Air Filter Upgrade"
Air Intake Kit, Comptech Sport (97-01 Type R) $189.00

Total $358. If only the filter is added, then total cost is $169+$69=$238

I am interested in the cost of George's old setup. If he got 182 hp at a

cost of Total - $1144

So, $1144 / 22hp = $52 per hp increase (based on 158 hp stock).

Then to get to 192 hp it cost a total of $3963 (list) according to what SMSP & George said, or an extra $2819 for 10 hp more, which equates to $282/hp for those extra 10 hp. This is expensive to add 10 hp.

With regards to the use of peak hp, I am quite conscious of how this could skew the cost numbers slightly, if one is tuning for more mid-range torque. However having just come back from two track days at Watkins Glen, when exiting the esses at full throttle with my stock ITR motor, I was at 6700-7000 RPM in 4 th at the entrance to the back straight, and never was able to get past 8500 RPM before the brake point. So torque in this RPM range is what would have helped me the most there, and this would be pretty close to where the peak hp is made. In city driving, the priority would certainly be torque in the lower ranges. But in the Sport Compact Car article where they reviewed the Toda ITR and others, track time was the metric. This means tuning for maximum torque above the gear shift RPM, which generally would be quite similar to tuning for maximum hp in an ITR. I just want to spend the money once (if all goes well) and was looking for how to get to a NA 200 whp the cheapest way. Dyno curves with build details for 200 hp are pretty rare.

[George Knighton]

Then to get to 192 hp it cost a total of $3963 (list) according to what SMSP & George said, or an extra $2819 for 10 hp more, which equates to $282/hp for those extra 10 hp. This is expensive to add 10 hp.

Dave and Steve have dyno plots for cars on which quite a bit more money was spent, but the car's only a couple of peak HP higher than mine.

We're lucky that a group of us have been around long enough to have done things the hard way, and lucky that the group doesn't mind sharing the information, good and bad.

[Trey]

There is something to be said for money vs HP.

George mentiones the hard vs easy way but something to consider is $375 for a JDM 4-1 that makes 3-5 hp less than the SMSP but costs $500-$600 Less (I am guessing at Pricing Dave).

If your goal is absolute horsepower money be damned then we can steer you one way and if it is power on a budget we can steer you another.

[George Knighton]

Definitely true.

The first dyno chart of mine that got attention was actually this one:



Stock, the car was 158 horses.

This huge and very economical jump consisted of an SMSP cat and cat-back together with an OEM JDM header.

Comptech Icebox, and reset the ECU, and that was it.

Huge, very perceivable increase in HP and torque!

If you can get gains like this spending so little money, it does give you cause to pause and consider whether any extra money is worth the expense.

Although I enjoy driving my ITR very much with the motor the way it is right now, I would have a hard time actually justifying the expense based on just the peak HP figgers.

[BryanSprinkel]

I just want to spend the money once (if all goes well) and was looking for how to get to a NA 200 whp the cheapest way. Dyno curves with build details for 200 hp are pretty rare.

The following mod’s produced 198whp and 134tq.

Skunk2 stage one cams -- $700
Skunk2 cam gears -- $250
Kenji P28 & harness $ 400 (?)
Toda Header -- $850 (?)
Comptech Ice Box & filter -- $225
Test pipe -- $50
2.5 in custom exh with SMS muffler, and resonator. $275 (esimated)
VAFC -- $275
FPR -- $50
No power steering, or AC belts. – free.

Total : $3075

Seems like a lot of $$ to me..

Here is the dyno plot.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=169618

The same setup made 193 with a JDM header.

[descartesfool]

Gentlemen,

thank you for the most informative posts. The 182 hp for low bucks and the 198 hp for a little over 3 grand are very interesting. That 198 hp curve is very close to what I was hoping to get, with max power rising steadily in the 7000-8000 RPM band and pretty constant out to 8500 RPM. This will be good for the track. I know I could go to FI with a turbo or supercharger for more power, but I have never seen anyone else doing it for track use, so I will stay NA! I am indeed glad some of you can share your past experiences for those of us just starting out to modify our ITR's. I understand Trey has just installed a Comptech race header and race exhaust, which is similar to the Hytech and SMSP long primary headers. It will be interesting to see a chart on what that setup can achieve. I am pondering this hp info while starting to modify the handling with suspension mods, roll bar, belts, tires and wheels etc. Just want to know what the budget has to be for my 200 hp target (which is after all only about 25% over stock). Until I see a cheaper set-up, I will assume that the 198 hp above is the best deal.