ITRCA

Erik95LS wrote:I'd defiitely try the tire pressure offset, but dont' mess with it much at all while at the track. just get used to the car and sort things later. I can't imagine your car understeering as badly as you say it is. I dont' know about the front sway, but I think the 23mm bar would help you out pretty well and its very inexpensive and requires 0 modification. Might be worth a shot.

I dont understand this either. Look under ur car and see if you actaully have aa rear sway!!!

<have only understeered in the rain with the r.

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:I'd defiitely try the tire pressure offset, but dont' mess with it much at all while at the track. just get used to the car and sort things later. I can't imagine your car understeering as badly as you say it is. I dont' know about the front sway, but I think the 23mm bar would help you out pretty well and its very inexpensive and requires 0 modification. Might be worth a shot.

Yeah, I don't want to change much but I know for sure the car is pushing a bit. I'm most likely going to only change the tire pressure for now and see what happens. Or I can keep the front sway and go with a bigger rear. Also, for turn in I can make some dampner changes but all of that will come later. I just want to feel comfortable at speed and on the track.

where in the turn are you experiencing the understeer? how are you entering/going through the turn? I'm wondering if maybe theres something you can change in your driving that would help to minimze it. Not sayign you're screwing up, just trying to help.

Well, that's what I'm trying to go over and figure out. It happens mostly at turn in and before the apex. Also doesn't want to track out the way I'd like it too. I tried so damn hard, concentrating on only one corner to get it right all day and I think I did it right one time. Just feels like the car doesn't want to rotate. It's very possible it's the driver and not the car, that's why I didn't change anything on the track and want to get more seat time before I start changing things.

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:I'd defiitely try the tire pressure offset, but dont' mess with it much at all while at the track. just get used to the car and sort things later. I can't imagine your car understeering as badly as you say it is. I dont' know about the front sway, but I think the 23mm bar would help you out pretty well and its very inexpensive and requires 0 modification. Might be worth a shot.

Yeah, I don't want to change much but I know for sure the car is pushing a bit. I'm most likely going to only change the tire pressure for now and see what happens. Or I can keep the front sway and go with a bigger rear. Also, for turn in I can make some dampner changes but all of that will come later. I just want to feel comfortable at speed and on the track.

where in the turn are you experiencing the understeer? how are you entering/going through the turn? I'm wondering if maybe theres something you can change in your driving that would help to minimze it. Not sayign you're screwing up, just trying to help.

This is what I said. There has t obe a variable that the three of us are not seeing!

Doespike wrote: Relevent question: do you guys know any online sites that explain the 1-2-3's a of suspension, springs, shocks, etc. I'm trying to wrap my head around the topic, especially rates. I found a few sources that explained parts of it, but not the whole picture.

i'll look around for someplace online, but look into some books by Carroll Smith. He's one of the greatest race engineers that ever lived and he wrote several books about building and setup. Any bookstore can get them and may even have them in stock. I've got several of his books and they are a godsend. Its just hard to sit downa dn read them because they're so above my head on a lot of aspects. http://www.howstuffworks.com actually also has some pretty good explanations of the very basics.

walker111 wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:I'd defiitely try the tire pressure offset, but dont' mess with it much at all while at the track. just get used to the car and sort things later. I can't imagine your car understeering as badly as you say it is. I dont' know about the front sway, but I think the 23mm bar would help you out pretty well and its very inexpensive and requires 0 modification. Might be worth a shot.

I dont understand this either. Look under ur car and see if you actaully have aa rear sway!!!

<have only understeered in the rain with the r.

LOL. Yes Jim, it's there.

Dave, u cant hit a turn at 100mph with no brakes and jam the wheel to one side and expect the car to turn!

Thats very wierd. Joo need an in car cam now!!

walker111 wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:I'd defiitely try the tire pressure offset, but dont' mess with it much at all while at the track. just get used to the car and sort things later. I can't imagine your car understeering as badly as you say it is. I dont' know about the front sway, but I think the 23mm bar would help you out pretty well and its very inexpensive and requires 0 modification. Might be worth a shot.

Yeah, I don't want to change much but I know for sure the car is pushing a bit. I'm most likely going to only change the tire pressure for now and see what happens. Or I can keep the front sway and go with a bigger rear. Also, for turn in I can make some dampner changes but all of that will come later. I just want to feel comfortable at speed and on the track.

where in the turn are you experiencing the understeer? how are you entering/going through the turn? I'm wondering if maybe theres something you can change in your driving that would help to minimze it. Not sayign you're screwing up, just trying to help.

This is what I said. There has t obe a variable that the three of us are not seeing!

Variables I can think of...

Driver. Just lack of experience.
Tires. I did drop some PSI all the way around. I was at like 43 hot on all corners
Sways. Maybe my driving style is different from others.
I can also do some different things with the camber and sussy but I'd like to leave those out until last.

i say, get another event under ur belt and see how it feels.

walker111 wrote:Dave, u cant hit a turn at 100mph with no brakes and jam the wheel to one side and expect the car to turn!

Well no shiz fool. But I had already had my braking and down shifting done before the corner. I was "coasting" until turn in. Again, maybe an inexperienced thing but the instructor said I was doing things right. :shrug: I'm probably just going to make a PSI change and have a 4 PSI difference between front and rear and see where that takes me. It's a free mod and easy to change.

Dave_B wrote:
Well, that's what I'm trying to go over and figure out. It happens mostly at turn in and before the apex. Also doesn't want to track out the way I'd like it too. I tried so damn hard, concentrating on only one corner to get it right all day and I think I did it right one time. Just feels like the car doesn't want to rotate. It's very possible it's the driver and not the car, that's why I didn't change anything on the track and want to get more seat time before I start changing things.

Perhaps you're carrying too much speed into the corner. In doing this any car will naturally understeer as its using the front tires to scrub off speed. That will also blow the rest of your corner. Maybe try braking just a bit more and then feeding back in the throttle a bit earlier than you have been. You'll generally do most of your throttle adjusting from just before the apex and on.

walker111 wrote:i say, get another event under ur belt and see how it feels.

That's my thought process. I need a few more to work on me, then I can work on the car, though I will at least be changing tire pressure. I'm also going to chalk my tires.

I have never heard anyone with a virtually stock motor complain about understeer with an r. Very peculiar..

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:
Well, that's what I'm trying to go over and figure out. It happens mostly at turn in and before the apex. Also doesn't want to track out the way I'd like it too. I tried so damn hard, concentrating on only one corner to get it right all day and I think I did it right one time. Just feels like the car doesn't want to rotate. It's very possible it's the driver and not the car, that's why I didn't change anything on the track and want to get more seat time before I start changing things.

Perhaps you're carrying too much speed into the corner. In doing this any car will naturally understeer as its using the front tires to scrub off speed. That will also blow the rest of your corner. Maybe try braking just a bit more and then feeding back in the throttle a bit earlier than you have been. You'll generally do most of your throttle adjusting from just before the apex and on.

I know that was happening in T17, but not in T1 where I feel my problem is. I wanted to mainly work on T1 for now. T17 is a monster all in it's own. I don't think I was carrying to much speed for T1 though, I would have considered that like I did for T17. I looked at the scrubbing on the front vs. the rear tires and they are basically equal. So I don't think that's my issue with that corner. I'll try a little slower and more throttle earlier and see what happens. Yeah, at that corner (blind mind you) I wasn't getting on the throttle until after Apex.

walker111 wrote:I have never heard anyone with a virtually stock motor complain about understeer with an r. Very peculiar..

Not complaining here Jim, just trying to get feedback to see what's going on. Hell, it may just be my head playing tricks on me. Or the fact that I didn't want to wad the car the first time out. Hell, I dunno. I'm just looking for advise and feedback at this point.

try entering a few corners far slower than you think you should and then feed in the throttle early (not full throttle just partial to get the weight distribution pretty even front to rear). When you can see down the straight after the corner feed it in the rest of the way. Then as you do this keep picking up speed until you feel it start doing something you dont' want it to. Talk this over with your instructor first, but I think it may help you. I'm no expert, but the best way to find a problem is to see what makes it happen and this would certainly do that. This is also just a general guideline and will take your input and your own adjustments to find what works best for you for each particular corner. Just give it a shot though.

Dave_B wrote:

walker111 wrote:I have never heard anyone with a virtually stock motor complain about understeer with an r. Very peculiar..

Not complaining here Jim, just trying to get feedback to see what's going on. Hell, it may just be my head playing tricks on me. Or the fact that I didn't want to wad the car the first time out. Hell, I dunno. I'm just looking for advise and feedback at this point.

I know man, bad choice of words on my part.

Dave_B wrote:
I know that was happening in T17, but not in T1 where I feel my problem is. I wanted to mainly work on T1 for now. T17 is a monster all in it's own. I don't think I was carrying to much speed for T1 though, I would have considered that like I did for T17. I looked at the scrubbing on the front vs. the rear tires and they are basically equal. So I don't think that's my issue with that corner. I'll try a little slower and more throttle earlier and see what happens. Yeah, at that corner (blind mind you) I wasn't getting on the throttle until after Apex.

isn't turn 1 there extremely bumpy? That would only exacerbate things.

Jim, I'm curious what a motor being stock or not has to do with understeer.

Erik95LS wrote:try entering a few corners far slower than you think you should and then feed in the throttle early (not full throttle just partial to get the weight distribution pretty even front to rear). When you can see down the straight after the corner feed it in the rest of the way. Then as you do this keep picking up speed until you feel it start doing something you dont' want it to. Talk this over with your instructor first, but I think it may help you. I'm no expert, but the best way to find a problem is to see what makes it happen and this would certainly do that. This is also just a general guideline and will take your input and your own adjustments to find what works best for you for each particular corner. Just give it a shot though.

Thanks. I may have him drive the car for a few laps too to see what he thinks of all of this. I could be entering wrong, to hot, late/early turn in, not hard enough turn in. There are just so many things that I think if someone else drove it and told me what they feel it may help me out.

walker111 wrote:

Dave_B wrote:

walker111 wrote:I have never heard anyone with a virtually stock motor complain about understeer with an r. Very peculiar..

Not complaining here Jim, just trying to get feedback to see what's going on. Hell, it may just be my head playing tricks on me. Or the fact that I didn't want to wad the car the first time out. Hell, I dunno. I'm just looking for advise and feedback at this point.

I know man, bad choice of words on my part.

I know.

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:
I know that was happening in T17, but not in T1 where I feel my problem is. I wanted to mainly work on T1 for now. T17 is a monster all in it's own. I don't think I was carrying to much speed for T1 though, I would have considered that like I did for T17. I looked at the scrubbing on the front vs. the rear tires and they are basically equal. So I don't think that's my issue with that corner. I'll try a little slower and more throttle earlier and see what happens. Yeah, at that corner (blind mind you) I wasn't getting on the throttle until after Apex.

isn't turn 1 there extremely bumpy? That would only exacerbate things.

Jim, I'm curious what a motor being stock or not has to do with understeer.

Though not in an ITR (hell not even close) Here's a lap of sebring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQrplsATAoE

Dave_B wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:try entering a few corners far slower than you think you should and then feed in the throttle early (not full throttle just partial to get the weight distribution pretty even front to rear). When you can see down the straight after the corner feed it in the rest of the way. Then as you do this keep picking up speed until you feel it start doing something you dont' want it to. Talk this over with your instructor first, but I think it may help you. I'm no expert, but the best way to find a problem is to see what makes it happen and this would certainly do that. This is also just a general guideline and will take your input and your own adjustments to find what works best for you for each particular corner. Just give it a shot though.

Thanks. I may have him drive the car for a few laps too to see what he thinks of all of this. I could be entering wrong, to hot, late/early turn in, not hard enough turn in. There are just so many things that I think if someone else drove it and told me what they feel it may help me out.

You should come up here and pay for an event and I'd gladly drive your car for you and tell you what i think

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:

Erik95LS wrote:try entering a few corners far slower than you think you should and then feed in the throttle early (not full throttle just partial to get the weight distribution pretty even front to rear). When you can see down the straight after the corner feed it in the rest of the way. Then as you do this keep picking up speed until you feel it start doing something you dont' want it to. Talk this over with your instructor first, but I think it may help you. I'm no expert, but the best way to find a problem is to see what makes it happen and this would certainly do that. This is also just a general guideline and will take your input and your own adjustments to find what works best for you for each particular corner. Just give it a shot though.

Thanks. I may have him drive the car for a few laps too to see what he thinks of all of this. I could be entering wrong, to hot, late/early turn in, not hard enough turn in. There are just so many things that I think if someone else drove it and told me what they feel it may help me out.

You should come up here and pay for an event and I'd gladly drive your car for you and tell you what i think

Fly your ass down here for a weekend, enjoy the floridian beaches and go with me in Nov. I'll let you take it out for a few laps.

Erik95LS wrote:

Dave_B wrote:
I know that was happening in T17, but not in T1 where I feel my problem is. I wanted to mainly work on T1 for now. T17 is a monster all in it's own. I don't think I was carrying to much speed for T1 though, I would have considered that like I did for T17. I looked at the scrubbing on the front vs. the rear tires and they are basically equal. So I don't think that's my issue with that corner. I'll try a little slower and more throttle earlier and see what happens. Yeah, at that corner (blind mind you) I wasn't getting on the throttle until after Apex.

isn't turn 1 there extremely bumpy? That would only exacerbate things.

Jim, I'm curious what a motor being stock or not has to do with understeer.

Because with alot of power accelerationg thru a turn can induce understeer. I can take my car and virtually stomp on the gas in a turn, that same turn with my friends turbo R i plow because the wheels break loose. There are other variables involved, just saying with alot of power you can understeer whenever you want.

Erik95LS wrote:

Doespike wrote: Relevent question: do you guys know any online sites that explain the 1-2-3's a of suspension, springs, shocks, etc. I'm trying to wrap my head around the topic, especially rates. I found a few sources that explained parts of it, but not the whole picture.

i'll look around for someplace online, but look into some books by Carroll Smith. He's one of the greatest race engineers that ever lived and he wrote several books about building and setup. Any bookstore can get them and may even have them in stock. I've got several of his books and they are a godsend. Its just hard to sit downa dn read them because they're so above my head on a lot of aspects. http://www.howstuffworks.com actually also has some pretty good explanations of the very basics.

Cool, wrote his name, will look into his books soon. Forgot all about howstuffworks.com haha.
Basically one of the only mods I desire on my GS would be to reduce bodyroll in corners. When I'm driving, I hit turns fairly hard when its dry out and traffic allows. I searched "over there" and mostly came up with "slamming" threads But alot of those guys complained about performance after their coilover change or whatever, but it "looked" good. Again,
This looks like what I'm looking for, but I'm thinking springs should be upgraded at the very least. Even with the reinforcement kit, I'd think my subframe may eventually get damaged. And Joe don't want that But then I get to thinking what are the limits of my OEM shocks and how much stiffer of a spring could they handle.
But I don't want to do anything until I learn a whole lot more..