Tuning Wars (Power FC vs Hondata S200)

Post by **Trey** » April 30th, 2003, 2:35 pm

Here is the low down to this point.

I currently own a Power FC with Datalogit (base map changing interface hardware/software). Hondata has graciously supplied me an S200 System and P28 ECU.

I have become fairly familiar with the Power FC and tuning with it. That said there is one PFC guru in the east. Jack Harris of P1 Auto is a ninja tuner with the Power FC and has the dyno. The man with the Hondata skills to rival jack and the power FC is Steve Sakai from sgt-racing. I figured what better way to show the potential of the 2 systems other than to put in the Stock ECU, get a base run and then turn the respective guru loose with their system. Both parties seem to be receptive to the idea so we are hammering out the last few details.

I will post on ITRCA all our Findings. Due to Hondata's generosity all things being close to equal I will continue to run the Hondata after the tests. Matt at hondata was an invaluable part of Expo3 and has been a good freind since I met him at Expo1

Look for more info to come out soon, after we set a date. We are waiting on a few other parts as well. Time Frame I hope will be Mid to Late May but nothing is close to firm yet.

Thoughts or Input as to this test?

Trey

cetane · Post by **cetane** » April 30th, 2003, 2:40 pm

I think before they get started they should arm wrestle.

Ill send you out the romulatior monday

shivers · Post by **shivers** » April 30th, 2003, 2:43 pm

cetane wrote:I think before they get started they should arm wrestle.

I vote for a drinking contest.

jetydosa · Post by **jetydosa** » April 30th, 2003, 2:49 pm

Results should be very intresting! Any wagers, odds?

cetane · Post by **cetane** » April 30th, 2003, 2:52 pm

OH Oh Wait I got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FULL CONTACT TUNNING!!!!!!!!!!!
They could body check each other, like gaurd the ecu from scoring programs.

Chris N · Post by **Chris N** » April 30th, 2003, 2:53 pm

Sweet!

A ninja tuner fight!

I look forward to the results!!

Although... how will they be judged? by peak numbers, which are craptastically full of crap, or by the total areas under the hp and tq curve?

I vote for the total areas!

I'm with Evil on this one... full body ninja tuning. Anything goes.

Post by **Trey** » April 30th, 2003, 2:56 pm

It will definitely be area under the curve. I suspect peak numbers will be +/- 1 if areas are similar.

Area under the curve you say . . . Calculus anyone?

Chris N · Post by **Chris N** » April 30th, 2003, 3:04 pm

Trey wrote:It will definitely be area under the curve. I suspect peak numbers will be +/- 1 if areas are similar.

Area under the curve you say . . . Calculus anyone?

Calculus is good stuff!

Chris - who enjoyed calc class (1 & 2) very much for some strange reason.

Aj · Post by Aj » April 30th, 2003, 7:59 pm

Yeah, if you need any one to do the Calc, I spent more time than I care to count in Calculus and Quantitative methodology...comes with being and MIS major I suppose....

Any way, definitely area under the curve, there really isn't any other way to get a real answer, though, the dyno does give you avg. gains...I guess we'll just have to find out, though I'm looking forward to it quite a bit...

Later,
Aj

descartesfool · Post by **descartesfool** » May 1st, 2003, 7:20 pm

Trey,

this sounds like a fun project. Have you decided if you are going to get the best maps for each with the same ignition and cam timing for an equal comparison, or are you just going to see which tuner gets the best at whatever timing works for him?

With regards to the area under the curve issue, I did a simulation for times in straights at Mosport with increased power lavels in different RPM bands, keeping area under the curve constant, and if you look at the thread I started at http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=404896, you will see where in the power band (with stock gearing and non stock gearing) you are going to reduce your lap time the most, and I would think this would apply to most tracks. I would concentrate tuning efforts in that RPM range.

I am looking forward to the results. Should be fun.

D · Post by D » May 1st, 2003, 9:28 pm

Trey wrote:Due to Hondata's generosity all things being close to equal I will continue to run the Hondata after the tests.

so, whatcha gonna do with the PFC after this? i could definatly use something better than the VAFC with the B's.

D

George Knighton · Post by **George Knighton** » May 1st, 2003, 10:54 pm

Trey wrote:It will definitely be area under the curve.

Judging from my own dyno plot, Jack's going to have his hands full beating Sakai's tuning.

Aj · Post by Aj » May 2nd, 2003, 3:15 am

descartesfool wrote: I would think this would apply to most tracks. I would concentrate tuning efforts in that RPM range.

Yes, but different tracks, different places in the power band, it depends on how the course is laid out...for example, Moroso motorsports park, having a very fast car in the straits is a huge benefit, but at like Sebring Long course, it's more about handling and efficiency. In other words, there is no universal rpm range where it will be most affective in regards to road racing, you really just want a linear consistent power curve regardless of where it makes power.

Besides, trying to tune your car for each track differently, would be a very arduous task...

Later,
Aj

Post by **Trey** » May 2nd, 2003, 7:52 am

D wrote:
Trey wrote:Due to Hondata's generosity all things being close to equal I will continue to run the Hondata after the tests.
so, whatcha gonna do with the PFC after this? i could definatly use something better than the VAFC with the B's.

D

Gonna sell it. Why don't you come up for the P1 Event and Jack can put it right in and tune it up for you. . .

TypeR 801 · Post by **TypeR 801** » May 2nd, 2003, 9:45 am

I'd also like some subjective feedback on the two systems. 98% of the time we're not at WOT, so I'd be curious to hear your impressions of the tuning under part throttle acceleration....how the car responds in normal drving situations, mid range torque, responsiveness, etc.

In the VW world, chips were designed at least as much for part throttle as they were for full throttle and that's what made the chip such a great investment was the difference you felt in everyday driving.

While I agree I'll be just as interested as everyone else in the dyno curves, the subjective feedback on these two systems compared to each other and stock will be very important as well IMO.

Aj · Post by Aj » May 2nd, 2003, 1:45 pm

TypeR 801 wrote:In the VW world, chips were designed at least as much for part throttle as they were for full throttle and that's what made the chip such a great investment was the difference you felt in everyday driving.

I'm not sure which chips you invested in in your VW, but the GIAC and APR are incredibly unlinear, fidjity, and tempermental for the VW. There is also the Ubsolute, which surges terribly. They take a very well tunned car to begin with and make it faster, but also remove the finess it once had as far as drivability...it seems fly by wire doesn't respond well to modulation, and the chip tunners do nothing to change that when adding more power...Just my opinion, but it's based on all the complaints I've heard locally with guys in Mk 3 and Mk 4 VW's...

So if you want a comparison, Hondata uses all the stock drivers, and is very drivable. The only thing it doesn't have which I wish it did is a cold start map...That being said, it's one of the most drivable setups out there...

Later,
Aj

SMSP · Post by **SMSP** » May 2nd, 2003, 8:03 pm

Same day and dyno?

Post by **Trey** » May 2nd, 2003, 9:48 pm

SMSP wrote:Same day and dyno?

Yes Sir.

TypeR 801 · Post by **TypeR 801** » May 5th, 2003, 3:20 pm

I have experience with GIAC, TT, & Neuspeed chips in 2.0L 16V and MKII and MKIII VR6's. The GIAC in the 97 GTI VR6 worked the best. Great throttle response, improved mileage, more torque everywhere. $25 upgrades for Cams, TB, etc. For $100 it was a fantastic mod!

Dunno about the drive by wire and the 1.8T's. I got out before buying an MKIV. Tired of the problems with the VW's. All the MKIII's VR6 owners raved about Garret, including me.

Aj wrote:
TypeR 801 wrote:In the VW world, chips were designed at least as much for part throttle as they were for full throttle and that's what made the chip such a great investment was the difference you felt in everyday driving.
I'm not sure which chips you invested in in your VW, but the GIAC and APR are incredibly unlinear, fidjity, and tempermental for the VW. There is also the Ubsolute, which surges terribly. They take a very well tunned car to begin with and make it faster, but also remove the finess it once had as far as drivability...it seems fly by wire doesn't respond well to modulation, and the chip tunners do nothing to change that when adding more power...Just my opinion, but it's based on all the complaints I've heard locally with guys in Mk 3 and Mk 4 VW's...

So if you want a comparison, Hondata uses all the stock drivers, and is very drivable. The only thing it doesn't have which I wish it did is a cold start map...That being said, it's one of the most drivable setups out there...

Later,
Aj

Aj · Post by Aj » May 5th, 2003, 9:10 pm

Tru, I have a lot of friend who are really into Mrk 4's, but have all sorts of problems, especially with window regulators...

Any way.....

TypeR 801 · Post by **TypeR 801** » May 6th, 2003, 11:52 am

Trey,

Any chance of getting Steve's tuning of your car included in the base maps Hondata offers?!? Since the base maps aren't that good for most of us and since your car has the typical mods most ITR and hybrid owners have, it would seem to me this exercise could really benefit not only you, but also many other ITR and hybrid owners as well.

IMO that's the biggest problem with Hondata. It's not the cost of their hardware, but the dyno time, finding someone skilled to tune it, and the shear hassle of organizing it. A few hundred $ mod becomes much more expensive and difficult because their isn't a good base map for the ITR already offered. If there was a good base map, many of us could run it 'as is' with no tuning. I personally would buy a S200 system immediately if it was offered with a good base map.

Just throwing out an idea here, since you've got a good relationship with Hondata and are getting your car tuned by one of the best Honda tuners.

Trey wrote:Here is the low down to this point.

I currently own a Power FC with Datalogit (base map changing interface hardware/software). Hondata has graciously supplied me an S200 System and P28 ECU.

I have become fairly familiar with the Power FC and tuning with it. That said there is one PFC guru in the east. Jack Harris of P1 Auto is a ninja tuner with the Power FC and has the dyno. The man with the Hondata skills to rival jack and the power FC is Steve Sakai from sgt-racing. I figured what better way to show the potential of the 2 systems other than to put in the Stock ECU, get a base run and then turn the respective guru loose with their system. Both parties seem to be receptive to the idea so we are hammering out the last few details.

I will post on ITRCA all our Findings. Due to Hondata's generosity all things being close to equal I will continue to run the Hondata after the tests. Matt at hondata was an invaluable part of Expo3 and has been a good freind since I met him at Expo1

Look for more info to come out soon, after we set a date. We are waiting on a few other parts as well. Time Frame I hope will be Mid to Late May but nothing is close to firm yet.

Thoughts or Input as to this test?

Trey

ITRCA

Tuning Wars (Power FC vs Hondata S200)

Tuning Wars (Power FC vs Hondata S200)

Re: Tuning Wars (Power FC vs Hondata S200)

Re: Tuning Wars (Power FC vs Hondata S200)

Test Conditions?

Re: Test Conditions?

Re: Tuning Wars (Power FC vs Hondata S200)