ITRCA

I know this is a touchy subject. Just for the record, I had never flogged a student's car. I didn't even flog sackdz's and EFFECT's race cars when I drove them. But I do want to know what the rules are on this regard.

Personally, I think it's a good idea to drive the student's car for a few laps in the first session in a slow pace. It can show them the line and what THEIR car should feel like. I'm not sure if BMWCCA still does that, but instructor driving the students car in the first session of both days is/was mandatory, and I think it was very helpful.

Many people said that the line could be shown in my own car, I agree. But it can't simulate what their own car should feel like and I think it's a very important perception that the student needs to have.

Thoughts?

I tend to agree. Especially when its the students first time out on the track. In my experience they really respond well to demonstration in an environment they are comfortbale with - their own car. Just as long as its driven moderately.

Taking a student out in a race car when they've barely been on the track before is somewhat distracting and makes it hard for them to concentrate on driving technique.

I've found what works best with a new student is riding with them for one session and then taking them out. That way they've gotten over the nervousness of driving on the track, and also can relate a lot better when they are watching you.

Wai, I'm glad you brought this up so we can hear everyone's input.

Personally, I think it's a bad idea for an instructor to drive the student's car. Even at a modest speed, there are too many bad things that can happen (wreck, mechanical failure, etc). Arguably, some of these things are out of the instructor's control. Still, I wouldn't want to argue who's at fault in the event the student's car is damaged while in the instructor's care. I wouldn't drive a student's car even if he asked me to. Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but the potential for liability at every turn scares the heck out of me.

I also don't think that driving a student's car lets the student feel how "his" car should handle. That's because, driving at a modest pace, most cars feel dynamically very similar. It's at greater speeds that cars really start to display different handling characteristics, speeds that instructors should not be taking in a student's car.

I think it's also a stretch to think that a student will learn much about the dynamics of his vehicle when he's sitting in the passenger seat. It's hard enough for a student to learn vehicle dynamics while he's sitting behind the steering wheel. I think it's way beyond most students' abilities to translate what they're feeling in the passenger seat to what they would be feeling were they sitting in the driver's seat.

It's not so much the dynamics they are taught by riding as everything else: Braking, shifting techniques, line, etc. A new student is always very excited to get back out and improve upon the last session. Demonstration is the best way to make sure they adapt in the right direction IMO.

I agree theres a slight amount of personal risk involved in driving someone else's car, but the way I see it, an instructor appropriately driving his student in their car does much more to minimize the risk of the student himself having a probelm in their next session.

Additionally, if there is a particular concept a student just can't seem to grasp, demonstration is the only way they will learn.

I suppose I'm saying all this with the thought that I don't currently have a passenger seat in my car, which has been the case at the last few events I've instructed. I don't even own another seat and I can't always find one to borrow.

One example was that a student rode in my car, he thought that I could make the turn-in because my car was setup "better". I actually wasn't going fast at all and I knew that his car could also do it safely. But he refused to accept the fact that his car could make the turn-in and kept turning in too late.

It was more than one occasion that my students thought their cars were not "set up right" because it felt so much different when they rode in my car. I guess their perception is valid, but not necessarily correct.

I'd have to say I fall in the middle on this one

I've seen both scenarios go good and bad. It PRIMARILY depends upon the quality of the instructor in my opinion.

-- If you are going to have instructors drive a few laps in a students car on the first session at ~50-75% MAXIMUM I think some good things learned (ie - get the newbie to not be afraid the car will go off the track on that slow speed & they can see shift points, brake points, track line, etc).

-- If you do it this way, I think ALL instructors should drive at the same time (say ~5 laps & then everyone into the hot-pits for student / instructor driver change). That way, there is no bull-shit nutt-ball instructor driving a student's car like a maniac & then pitching that it was the student driving.

*****Please realize that I have the utmost confidence in the high-quality instructors we have gathered. I know many of you personally. However, we all know a few guys that will take this 'opportunity' and thrash a car if there is no oversight. I want us to have fun, teach well, and have a set of newbies that learn how to safely drive a car faster and more effectively when they are done. NO accidents due to stupidity.

I guess this was more than .02? Maybe a .05 version

BudMan

I personally am for instructors driving the student's car. I think it gives the instructor a feel for the car and may show weeknesses in the car, such as spongy brakes, shake in the wheel, tire pressure being off, etc. I personally learned A TON when a more experienced driver drove my car when I first started getting on the track.

If Jim and Lance decide to allow instructors to drive the students' cars for a session, I can shorten those sessions so we don't have to waste the time switching.

Wes

hi guys, i'm glad to be a part of this group. from where i started about 5 years ago in this thing, it's an accomplishment of sorts for me to be considered able enough to be an 'instructor.'

as a driver in these events where instructors were required to drive the students' car, i must say i am STRONGLY opposed to this. i refused to let an instructor whom i knew nothing about drive my car at any sort of speed, and i refuse to drive a car to which i don't at least have a decent familiarity with (in actual driving situations, not just theoretical). in short, i will not have my inaugural drive in a car in an instructing situation on a race track. i just don't see how i can adequately teach anything, when i myself have never driven the car. for example, i would feel comfortable driving an S2000, integra of various sorts, miata, or 240sx on track, all cars that i have somewhat extensive seat time in. but an RX7, lotus elise, ferrari, etc., i'm not so comfortable with.

in general, i, like jim, am opposed to driving students' cars. the only situation where i would be ok with this is if it was ALL instructors driving on the track at the same time so that a reasonable level of trust can be had between cars. perhaps on the friday instructors only day this could take place? i would also INSIST on the owner of the vehicle (i need to see a title so that it's not really the bank that owns the car) signing off on a release similar to the one we sign when we enter the track. i will assume absolutely ZERO responsibility for anything that happens while i'm driving the car. i don't care if i drive straight into a wall, that release form should say i'm not liable. i just don't have the kind of money to protect myself should the unforseen happen.

i'm not so sure showing the student what the car is capable of is a good thing at anything other than an instructor-level-driver showing another instructor-level-driver just what the car can do. while MAM is a great track for learning, the last thing i want is for the student to think he is capable of something he is not.

i will however concede the point that driving a student's car gives us the ability to point out deficiencies that the student might not otherwise take note of. but overall, i think more harm can come of the situation than good.

Travis - well written. Definately NOT at speed & definately NOT with regular students mixed with instructors...

I'm down for whatever...then again I may not even be instructing

I'm going to suggest a middle-ground that I'm comfortable with. So far, it's the ONLY way I'm comfortable with an instructor driving a student's car.

The instructor must sign an assumption of risk document that provides if ANYTHING happens to the student's car or its occupants while the instructor is driving, it is the instructor's fault. If the instructor drives the car into a wall, it's his fault. If another car hits you on the track, it's the instructor's fault. If a stray missile from the nearby AF base blows up your car, it's the instructor's fault. The fact is, he's behind the wheel, so he has more control over what happens to the car than the student does.

For that matter, I would consider requiring the instructor to show proof of insurance or post a bond that verifies he is personally insured up to $250,000 for causing damage to the car and/or the student. Again, if something bad happens, I want a pool of money already earmarked to pay for the damages. It does us no good to hold an instructor personally responsible for driving a student's car if the instructor is broke and can't pay for repairs.

I also would require the instructor to indemnify the event organizer and all of the event staff from any and all liability, attorney fees, etc. just in case the student decides to sue everyone for damages to his car or to him personally. The fact is I don't know all of our instructors personally. For all I know we could have a "Frank" in our midst, and I intend to cover my ass.

It does us no good to try and model our "instructor drive" policy after BMWCCA, PCA or another sanctioned group. First of all, these organizations are formally incorporated, which adds a shield of liability to its organizers. We don't have this kind of liability protection in place. I've offered in the past to set it up, but nobody seemed interested. Second, these groups have formal instructor training, which also adds a level of liability protection to the organizers. We have no such formal instructor training.

Instructors don't just owe a certain standard of care to their students, we owe a certain level of care to each other. If one or more of us is going to drive a student's car, he owes it to the rest of us to take the fall if something bad happens and indemnify the group to the greatest extent possible.

There, that's my professional opinion and my personal opinion, all wrapped up in about $.98.

Batoutahell wrote:It does us no good to try and model our "instructor drive" policy after BMWCCA, PCA or another sanctioned group. First of all, these organizations are formally incorporated, which adds a shield of liability to its organizers.

This is actually a very good point.

Just for the record, the session that was driven by the instructor in student's car, there's a 60-70mph speed limit and with no passing. Not sure if that would relieve some of the "crashing" concern, but from my experience, it really was quite impossible to hit or be hit by anything under such scenario with the field filled with all instructors following the same rule.

If the opinion varies so much between us instructors, I think we should just NOT allow any instructor to drive the student's car. But if we encounter a "stubborn" student who just doesn't get it and keeps making unsafe moves, we should bring it up to the organizer for special arrangement like change instructor, have the instructor drives his car, or have him ride with another instructor with a car most similar to his, etc. If we choose to do that, we would loose the opportunity of having a special short session with ALL instructors driving on track, with speed limit and no passing.

I can see both sides of this.............Many of us have been around the tracks long enough that we have built relationships with the students and potential students over the years. Both on the track and on the forums. We have become comfortable with each other. But saying that I'm not sure I would let a instructor drive my car the first time on the track.

My vote is to let the student make the decision. Lets dedicate a 10-15 minute "parade session" for instructors driving students cars. No passing, 6/10 driving ECT. If the student is not comfortable with that. The instructor can take them in their personal car.

Regarding the waiver, No way. We as instructors are putting our lifes in greater danger with inexperianced drivers than they are with us (most of us) behind the wheel. If a student is that concerned with another car/ missle ECT. he/she should not be on the track. When any of one gets on the track the possibility of an accident, rollover, death is possible at anytime. It is our responsability to help prevent that.

It also doesn't matter what kind of car it is Ferrari to Yugo, at 6/10 pace we all know how to drive a car smooth around a track (an if you don't you should be instructing) I have found over the years that instructing is less about the vehicle and more about drivers themselves.

Matt Jensen

There's a thought...a "Parade" lap max speed ~50mph just to show a basic line.

Other than that - I'm going to have to side with Jim. Considering I'm probably one of the most liable people (Expo committee, Site Designer, etc) I like NO LAWSUITS.

BudMan

I've been istructing for several groups over several years and offer the following:

Instructors should drive the students car for 2 to 3 laps at not more than 40 to 50 MPH on the straights and more like 20 on the corners. The time lets you 1. get a feel for the brakes, sounds, and general condition of the students car. 2. Show the student the track at a very comfortable speed where you are not having to explain anything very quickly. 3. Talk about run off areas, where the corner workers and flags are, where the pit in and out are and how to properly signal.

It should also be said that if a student doesn't feel comfortable with that, then they don't get that part of the experience. But it also means that they will need to listen very carefully to everything you say or be made to come off the track for a "discussion"!

Follow behinds really don't help much as cars tend to get bunched up and they can loose perspective on what you are trying to tell them. Many students "follow" the car in front anyway and that can be a bad situation as the person in front doesn't know where they are going yet either.

Whether the student or instructor drives the car to start, the speed should be rediculously low and the spacing between cars should be 50 yards or better.

I have mixed feelings on this as an organizor. My main thing against Instructors driving students cars is having a "Frank" on our hands. With an enforced speed limit during a single short session, I think that can be avoided.

Matt: The waiver was only for when you were driving the students car. The student is not putting you in danger at that point. I understand your point, but you don't think that if you wreck a students car you should be responsible because at other times your life is in the hands of the student?

If anyone here doesn't know what we mean when we say "Frank" just ask

I have been instructing at the Trac Racing academy in Montreal for about 7 years now and I am a regular instructor with the local lapping club and I can't think of any other way to start off a rookie ( or a novice driver on a new track), than to drive his car at a speed that I feel is appropriate to demostrate proper track etiquette and the racing line.

Quite honestly, if the instructors have all been selected with the same demanding criteria, there should be no issue with 'fault' as these situations rarely happen , if at all. It is all about discipline.

To say that an instructor is ALWAYS responsible when behind the wheel of a students car, is a bit much. Aside from the missile scenario ( I think that we would all have bigger problems to deal with) track incidents are quite possible. But to think that getting tee-boned entering a turn, by a car that has experienced brake failure, is the instructors responsibility.....well i think everyone who has signed up for this event must realize that , although quite remote, there is a possibilty of a track incident.

I am for the the proper use of a students car to demonstrate what is needed to get him safe as soon as possible. However, it is each entrants responsibilty to be aware of the consequences of being on the track.

Ok, I 'll bite.......what is the "Frank" referance?

Dropspeed wrote:Ok, I 'll bite.......what is the "Frank" referance?

ghetto_racer on HT...you'll find plenty of references there as to why we are concerned. Frank seems to enjoy driving lots of very expensive vehicles (demands he drive their car) as an instructor, but doesn't seem to take responsibility for any accidents (of which there have been several) or perhaps may not have the finances to even consider taking responsibility...

whew - I'm out of breath

Does that help??? I'd prefer not to go in to any more detail & make this thread a rant. No need to add any more detail by anyone.

BudMan

AFAIK Frank has not had an accident with driving the students' cars yet. He had a big wreck in a race in a rented Miata tho.

What everyone had a problem is that he flogged the student's car to 10/10. He likes to pass others in HPDE in corners and no-passing zones when he "thinks" that the slower car is not quick enough to give out a signal. Financially he can not afford to replace them (Ferraris, Porsches, etc.) and would actively ask for the keys.

both sides to the argument have valid points. my personal feeling on the matter doesn't really matter because the subject at hand is to come up with a policy that is acceptable to all.

i like the idea of giving the students and instructors an opprotunity to do this if they choose during the instructor day on friday. how about we contact all the students to get an idea how how many are planning on being at the track on friday? i think most everyone is aware at this point that there has been time set aside on friday for the instructor ride along. it may also provide the opprotunity to get some of the tech inspections accomplished.

2 other options i see are:

-designate the first session for the novice, and maybe intermediate, groups as sessions where the instructor is allowed, NOT REQUIRED, to drive the student's car at reduced speed.

-designate the first instructor session for the instructors to take the students out in their car.

the most important thing to point out is that this is only at the request of the student and i will kindly ask that no instructor ask to drive a student's car. we can spend a few minutes during the drivers meeting explaining all of this

[quote="Batoutahell"]Wai, I'm glad you brought this up so we can hear everyone's input.

Personally, I think it's a bad idea for an instructor to drive the student's car. Even at a modest speed, there are too many bad things that can happen (wreck, mechanical failure, etc). Arguably, some of these things are out of the instructor's control. Still, I wouldn't want to argue who's at fault in the event the student's car is damaged while in the instructor's care. I wouldn't drive a student's car even if he asked me to. Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but the potential for liability at every turn scares the heck out of me.

quote]

Hi all,

Glad to be here with you guys. I figured I better chime in and give my inputs. As a BMW CCA chapter VP and Chief Instructor who has attended numerous club risk management meetings the feeling of "fear" can only be perceived.

We recommend, not insist, that the instructors take the students out for the first couple of laps driving the students cars only to show the students the way around the track, the line and to get a basic feel for the car. Since these will be novice students "speed" will not really be obtained until late Saturday, if even Sunday. The instructor drives are only at a parade lap pace and in fact, we have found that when the first novice session is done without helmets and as a parade lap environment, the students are less likely to become intimidated since most are not accustom to helmets and the track environment. Driving a students car at a parade lap speed (50mph max) is no more risky than driving it to Dairy Queen for a malt.

Back to the perceived part, if during a parade session something mechanical were to happen is could not be perceived that the instructor had the student at risk or the vehicle in any type of danger.

I do not and will not condone any instructor "showing a student how this thing will handle". That's not what these evens are for. If you want to play at the limit, do in your own car and by all means, by yourself. If there is any risk of an incident, wouldn't you much rather risk the possibility of injury to only yourself and not your newfound friend?

Whew, almost got a nosebleed on this soapbox. I know we are all here to have fun but honestly, the fun ends when metal is bent or someone is hauled away on a stretcher. The only trophy at the end of the day is knowing you will be able to drive your car home.

Sheridan

Sheridan -

Well said!

Sounds like it's about time to write an "official" policy/procedure & then have it reviewed one last time.

already working on it.

As Lance said(kinda)..............just set the policies in place and we will abide by them as instructors.

Mattj