ITRCA

Since the post where we now have the amount of ITR for each year in the USA. Lets here your thoughts on the value of the cars...

3850 Total
1322 CW (34%)
1432 PY (37%)
1096 *BP (29%)
573 FBP (15%)
523 NBP (14%)
Info from : http://www.itrca.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6370


All cars are presumed with clear titles and no apparent damage, properly maintained and should be in turn key and go condition. please don't say what if it has...

These are my Honest opinions, If you have different thoughts, PLEASE post them up.
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1997 Rs with under 20,ooo miles = IMHO should be at pretty high. around $19-20,ooo+

1997 Rs with between 20,ooo miles and 60,ooo should be about $15-19,ooo

1997 Rs over 60,ooo miles should still fetch a decent amount but no less then $13,ooo
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1998 Rs with under 20,ooo miles = around $18-19,ooo

1998 Rs with between 20,ooo miles and 60,ooo should be about $15-19,ooo

1998 Rs over 60,ooo miles should still fetch a decent amount but no less then $14,ooo
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2000 Rs with under 20,ooo miles = around $19-21,ooo

2000 Rs with between 20,ooo miles and 60,ooo should be about $16-20,ooo

2000 Rs over 60,ooo miles should still fetch a decent amount but no less then $15,ooo
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2001 Rs with under 20,ooo miles = around $20-25,ooo

2001 Rs with between 20,ooo miles and 60,ooo should be about $17-20,ooo

2001 Rs over 60,ooo miles should still fetch a decent amount but no less then $16,ooo

As for any of the years that has less then 10,ooo miles legitimately...
The price could easily go past what the original MSRP was. I feel very strong in that for one main reason- If the car was kept by the original owner for all these years with less then 10,ooo miles then that caR should continue to stay a collector's item or at the very least to fetch a collectors asking price.
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Now keep in mind these cars are highly sought after by many different people for many different reasons.
I understand that they are just an Imported Japanese FWD hatchback, but they are in demand and supply is getting low and they will never ever be reproduced. The last one Rolled off the assembly plant just about Five years ago and the prices for collectors cars start to rise at that point.
On that note, please step in and give your honest opinion on the value of these cars. It might help one day if you need to sell it or hopefully never.. get money from the Insurance Companies if it's stolen from you.

Thoughts and ideas are welcome.

Please don't tell us what you have sold your caR for, there are too many variables in past situations. Lets keep this plain and simple.

I think there are additional variables, in order of decreasing value:

1) Bone stock, never modded

2) Back to stock with original bits, formerly modded*

3) Back to stock with bits from wherever, formerly modded

4) Still modded


* Meaning you took stuff off, stuck it in the closet, and then put it back on.

But your numbers look pretty good.

I feel that these cars will hold there value/ appreciate over the years. The theft rate and accident rate is unreal. Being that we started with 3850 Type R's, how many are really left? It has to be atleast under 3 thousand, I'm sure less. Its a dying breed and as time goes on there will be fewer ITR's.

I think the list is good, but there are so many other variables. Mods, wear and tear, mileage, everything for that matter. The value is in the eye of the buyer. If I had the money I would find the lowest mileage 97 and 01 ITR I could find and put'em in a garage somewhere and save them for a rainy day.

The value will rise, I cant say like the older domestic cars because imports havent hit that level. As soon as the younger generations cycle thru the prices will rise higher.

mine is 21,002........

I think your numbers are pretty dead on. Although, I think other than really excellent shape CW ones (more so 97s than 98s) they will continue to depreciate for a few more years before they really start to make their way back up. The demand will always be there even as the supply continues to deplete.

I just wonder how the increasing commonality of k-swaps is going to affect the want for c5s and the ITR in general.

Well, one thing you left out is condition, which is extremely important, and becomes even more important as time goes on. Some cars are really ratty, with body parts and interior parts damaged or poorly repaired, and others are absolutely mint. Of course, over 90 percent of sellers state that their cars are in above-average condition. Condition can make a difference of thousands of dollars in the value of a car.

You also don't state anything about maintenance or title. I'll assume that the above values are for a car with a clean title. A car that has a complete maintenance history and has been maintained at least as often as Honda recommends is worth significantly more than one that hasn't - even more so if that maintenance is recent.

I'm not sure why you break the mileage down by under 20K vs 20-60K vs over 60K. Quite a few cars have over 100K miles at this point, and they are worth several thousand less than a car with, say, 60-70K.

One other thing you didn't mention, that is often confusing, is the difference between asking prices and actual sale prices. People place ads listing cars with the expectation that they will be negotiated downwards by a grand or two. Are your prices asking prices, or actual selling prices?

Your description is also somewhat confusing because you state a value for under 20K, then go on to note that the value is substantially higher for cars with under 10K miles. I'm not doubting that they're higher, but it makes your description very confusing. If you take it literally, it says that a car with 9K miles might be worth $24K, but one with 11K miles might be worth only 19K, and no cars are worth amounts in between.

If you described a car to me with all of that information clearly specified, I can usually tell you a range of $1500 which is a fair buying or selling price. But it would be awfully time-consuming to come up with a list of every possible permutation of the above information.

From what I've seen in the market, there is absolutely NO greater value placed on a '97 than on a '98. I've heard a few people speculate that there is - usually those who own a '97 ( ) - but I've seen NO evidence of that whatsoever. The cars are identical, and there is no greater value placed on a '97, despite their somewhat-smaller numbers.

Aside from this last point (which implies that the ranges for a '97 should be no more than for an otherwise-similar '98 ), I don't think the numbers you've posted are inaccurate or wrong. However, as noted from all the points in this post, they oversimplify things by failing to take account of a number of factors that could make a given car's value higher or lower, and possibly even push that value outside the ranges you have stated.

To give you an idea of how a number of categories and price ranges can be specified for a given year's car, and all the factors that can affect which category a car should be considered, check out the pricing guide for NSXs in the NSX FAQ here.

nsxtasy wrote:Well, one thing you left out is condition, which is extremely important, and becomes even more important as time goes on. Some cars are really ratty, with body parts and interior parts damaged or poorly repaired, and others are absolutely mint. Of course, over 90 percent of sellers state that their cars are in above-average condition. Condition can make a difference of thousands of dollars in the value of a car.

You also don't state anything about maintenance or title. I'll assume that the above values are for a car with a clean title. A car that has a complete maintenance history and has been maintained at least as often as Honda recommends is worth significantly more than one that hasn't - even more so if that maintenance is recent.

You suck at the reading skills tonight

Bbasso wrote:

All cars are presumed with clear titles and no apparent damage, properly maintained and should be in turn key and go condition. please don't say what if it has...

nsxtasy wrote: I'm not sure why you break the mileage down by under 20K vs 20-60K vs over 60K. Quite a few cars have over 100K miles at this point, and they are worth several thousand less than a car with, say, 60-70K.

Why... because many of us don't want to buy a ITR over 50,ooo miles.
I'd be looking for one with the lowest mileage and best condition.

as for

nsxtasy wrote: One other thing you didn't mention, that is often confusing, is the difference between asking prices and actual sale prices. People place ads listing cars with the expectation that they will be negotiated downwards by a grand or two. Are your prices asking prices, or actual selling prices?

I'm going for Value ( I think that is what it's called ) What a normal person would value a limited production car's worth at.
What someone would ask for his or hers car has nothing to do with the value. I could ask $500 for my caR but we know the Value would be higher, much higher.

Bbasso wrote:You suck at the reading skills tonight

No, you suck at interpretation - interpretation of my post, as well as the ambiguity implied by your own post and its wording.

One person's "properly maintained" can be VERY different from another's. If I drive an ITR 5,000 miles a year, and the owner's manual says to change the brake fluid every 30K miles or 2 years, some people who change it once every 4-6 years THINK that it's properly maintained. I sure don't.

Similarly, although you state "no apparent damage" and "turn key and go condition", that can be subject to very different interpretations as well. Let's say a car has a stereo that doesn't work, and swirl marks and fading in the finish, and some wear spots on the seats, and hatch struts that don't hold up the hatch, and curbing on the wheels. That car would still fit your description, and the seller might state that it's in excellent condition. But I would consider the condition "fair" to "poor", and it would be worth several thousand dollars less than a car of the same year and mileage but with absolutely no problems whatsoever, a mirror glossy paint finish, etc.

BTW, why did you post this information - because you were interested in a serious discussion of ITR market values, or because you wanted to could state your opinion and then argue with anyone who disagrees?

walker111 wrote:Being that we started with 3850 Type R's, how many are really left? It has to be atleast under 3 thousand, I'm sure less.

It may easily be significantly more than three thousand.

Are we both just guessing here, or do you have any actual hard data to support your claim?

I posted this so all of the people who are interested in ITRs could have a basic understanding for what the car is worth these days.
I am not here to argue, pick at anything, or find faults... If you disagree with what I posted, (Which happens to be my opinion) then post your own thoughts on the value of ITRs. I'm not at all saying these are the market values. Just tossing them up to see what everyone thinks about my thoughts.

Bbasso wrote:Why... because many of us don't want to buy a ITR over 50,ooo miles.
I'd be looking for one with the lowest mileage and best condition.

So you're not really trying to come up with a pricing guide for all ITRs at all, but rather, only the ones that you would consider buying. Good thing you don't have a color preference, or we wouldn't be able to discuss more than two different years' values.

Bbasso wrote:I'm going for Value ( I think that is what it's called ) What a normal person would value a limited production car's worth at. What someone would ask for his or hers car has nothing to do with the value. I could ask $500 for my caR but we know the Value would be higher, much higher.

Here's how I like to define market value (which is what it's called). To me, it's a price at which (give or take a thousand dollars) a buyer ought to be able to buy a car, and a seller ought to be able to sell a car, with a reasonable amount of searching (searching nationwide using multiple websites, but not spending every hour of every day doing so) over the course of 2-4 weeks. And that means actual sale price, not asking prices. (That definition also excludes you asking $500 for your car, since cars can't normally be bought at that price, and also excludes an exorbitantly high asking price that someone listed a car for but at which finding a buyer is highly unlikely.)

Prices are really subjective. Are those prices that the owner should get? While I dont completely disagree with anything you are saying but things need to be picked apart and "what if'ed"

The best way to put this. No specific car has a specific price. The price will reflect many circumstances and conditions at the given time.

OK...

So if you are so strong minded about this subject and feel I approched this wrong, then why not say that and start a thread with 100% correct info?
I'll gladly lock or even delete this thread if you would provide a new thread with all the proper info on it.

I know I invited you here to give your opinions, but you are bashing me like there is no tomorrow. Why I just don't know.

My intent was to get a thread going on 'Market Value' so we could have some place to look at when a person is selling or buying a ITR.

For the most part, people are just tossing prices up in the air ( like you think I did ) when they are looking to sell off their R.
I'd like to narrow it down, simple as that.

Bbasso wrote:I know I invited you here to give your opinions, but you are bashing me like there is no tomorrow. Why I just don't know.

There wasn't any bashing that I can see.

Rob-

I think there's just too many variables to get a good value, and not enough recent market data available to be able to discern what a real market value should be.

For a 1997 Chevrolet Lumina, we could get three people in different parts of the country (Say, Connecticut, George, Cali) and get prices from Carmax, local dealers, and private classifieds, go see a handful of them to assess condition, and make a reasonable range for values.

For a 1997 ITR, you just CAN'T do that, because there are only a few dozen for sale in the whole USA, and finding a handful of them for sale in each market is tough, and really assessing condition is tough without seeing in person.

So...

Get some market data with prices and estimated car conditions, all from the last 12 months, and then let's reconvene Otherwise all we can do is speculate.
-Chris

nsxtasy wrote:

walker111 wrote:Being that we started with 3850 Type R's, how many are really left? It has to be atleast under 3 thousand, I'm sure less.

It may easily be significantly more than three thousand.

Are we both just guessing here, or do you have any actual hard data to support your claim?

I'm making a somewhat educated guess. You honestly think that through all accidents, thefts, flood or total loss there is more than 3000 ITR's left? What do you think the number of clear title ITR's is? I respect your opinion dont get me wrong I truly find it interesting. I hope over on HT we can get something going to find the real answer!

So give me your educated guess

You know...

I am starting to see, with all the "what's it worth" posts recently, that a friggin consensus post would be nice to see.

Even better, how about a calculator? An excel spreadsheet with miles, condition, etc?

-Chris

I wasn't bashing you, Rob. I was merely stating that it's impossible to estimate a market value for an ITR with XXXX year and XXK miles, and that you have to take a whole lot more factors into account before you can say how much a given car is worth. Like I said earlier, I don't think your figures are WRONG; I just think that they oversimplify things. It's the same thing that Chris and Mike said; they just said it in a few sentences, without pointing to specific factors and specific examples the way I did.

I really don't want to spend the time coming up with a whole long analysis covering every possible combination of factors.

In general, I would say that a nice, well-cared for, moderate-mileage, excellent condition ITR will generally sell for $17-19K, and a rough, higher-mileage, not so great condition ITR will generally sell for $13-15K. You can find exceptions outside those ranges in either category, and there are cars that don't fit neatly into either (like a higher-mileage mint car), but they tend to be pretty accurate and an awful lot of the cars tend to fit one description or the other. Does that help?

My apologies...

I see your point(s).

I was trying to keep it simple because of the reasons you posted. I know and understand there are many many variables to determine a cars value, Any car.

I am looking to get as many opinions on this as possible so that we could have a very loose idea what they should be valued at. I'm trying to look out for all the people who might be caught in the sale, buying or recovering for a total or theft.

Daaaaaamn, I missed all the fun?

I gotta quit work. Oh wait, work just did me a favor and closed up for a month Today!!!!

Something I don't think I caught was the difference between a bone stock 97 with No AC? I would expect one with low mileage or extremely low mileage, in excellent condition, clean title, etc would be the most expensive of all, it was rare and without dealer installed AC would be the purest form.

I also agree that there needs to be a noted difference with completely stock cars and or cars that have Never been modded as opposed to cars that Have been tampered with and then put back to stock. And cars with quality mods as opposed to cheap assed junk. Chris's idea of an Xcel spreadsheet is excellent.

Another point that will prove to raise a discussion is the very popular JDM front end conversion that so many guys went out of their way to afford to get done. I'm not a fan & my opinion shouldn't make a difference. BUT when you go swapping front ends around, you are of course changing the originality of the car for your personal liking, but is a pretty drastic change that I've seen done very well to extremely cheaply and either way should Not fetch the same amount as a USDM front in good to excellent shape, condition and clean titled.

But that's just imho for right now. I'm gonna pick my tmy R and take her for a spin today, it's supposed to be in the 50's

^^^^^Unfortunately some people value a car with a JDM Front more then the usdm. I feel that the true enthusiast disagrees.

walker111 wrote:^^^^^Unfortunately some people value a car with a JDM Front more then the usdm. I feel that the true enthusiast disagrees.

What matters isn't what any one individual prefers, but rather, how much the car can easily and reasonably fetch in the marketplace (the "market value" definition I posted above). And, from everything I've seen, the cars that can attract the highest prices are the ones that are bone stock. Some light, tasteful mods (intake or wheels or exhaust) aren't going to significantly reduce the market value. But others will. And very few - I can't think of any, offhand - are going to result in a higher market value. I haven't seen any evidence of a price premium on cars with the JDM front end.

A particular individual might be willing to pay more for a car with mods that HE is looking for. And he might have to pay more, because it's hard to find such a car. But that car won't easily and realistically sell for more, unless the seller gets very lucky.

In the end it comes down to not what We value the car at but what someone else will the buy the car for.

If you really look around you know you can find something worthwhile. What did Barnum say; theres a sucker born every minute. Same holds true for car sales tenfold.

The values that Rob listed aren't that far off but variables noted above need to be inserted as well as how they effect pricing.

the prices stated above i think are pretty accurate. i think the car is worth whatever someone is willing to pay. if i had the money, conisdering what my car look like i would spend whatever it took to get a clean 97.

What about US value of a stock 98 JDM integra registerd in the US?
41,ooo km on the engine

Real stok and real clean

found some one sellin it for 18,000.. and was kinda in interested in purchasing it...

But my question is... will that car hold its value like an actual us itr?